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Just now, FormerProfessional said:

Do you think only volunteers feel this way? That professionals don’t? If you do believe that you have offended every professional that cares. There are many that care.

No, I did not say that.  You felt volunteers feel that it's just a hobby.  I was addressing this sentiment alone. 

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9 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

No a hobby is something I do when I have time.  Scouting is something I make time for.  However, your comment is consistent with the contempt I've felt from many professional scouters.

Whether you have time or make time, it’s still an extracurricular activity...a hobby.  Volunteers with contempt for professionals make the career of Scouting not very enjoyable sometimes.

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4 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Chains of Command are funny things, they run two directions.  I can't count the number of times a DE has directly contacted a Cub Master or Den Leader instead of working through the Commissioner or Committee Chair.  

The 3 councils I worked for demanded each DE to make monthly unit leader calls. Cubmaster, Scoutmaster, Crew Advisor.  Just to ask what can I personally do for you and is everything ok.

I would talk to everyone at round table or training.  Sometimes unintentionally toes got stepped on

Just part of the job.

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2 minutes ago, FormerProfessional said:

Whether you have time or make time, it’s still an extracurricular activity...a hobby.  Volunteers with contempt for professionals make the career of Scouting not very enjoyable sometimes.

A hobby is done for pleasure, I don't do this for fun, I do this because I find meaning and purpose in it.  I do it so the boys (and girls) under my charge get the fun.  I don't have contempt for council professionals and enjoy working with them quite a bit,  but your condescension for volunteers is palpable. 

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1 minute ago, FormerProfessional said:

The 3 councils I worked for demanded each DE to make monthly unit leader calls. Cubmaster, Scoutmaster, Crew Advisor.  Just to ask what can I personally do for you and is everything ok.

I would talk to everyone at round table or training.  Sometimes unintentionally toes got stepped on

Just part of the job.

Going over my DE's head to get stuff done, when he/she doesn't return calls or email,  is just part of the job.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, FormerProfessional said:

Whether you have time or make time, it’s still an extracurricular activity...a hobby.  Volunteers with contempt for professionals make the career of Scouting not very enjoyable sometimes.

You can't have it both ways. You can't talk about scouters "drinking the cool-aid", expecting us to give BSA generational loyalty in another thread, and then say that scouting is just a hobby for us in this thread.  

I think you are wrong on both counts.

Edited by David CO
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3 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

A hobby is done for pleasure, I don't do this for fun, I do this because I find meaning and purpose in it.  I do it so the boys (and girls) under my charge get the fun.  I don't have contempt for council professionals and enjoy working with them quite a bit,  but your condescension for volunteers is palpable. 

You miss my point of the professionals do this for a love of the program and a job.  When you work for BSA as a professional it’s in the contract that the DE has no outside employment.  DEs work 8-5 m-f plus nights and weekends.

Do you have a paying job that is not Scouting? Do you do Scouting for free, no you pay BSA to do it.  It costs you $$$$ to do Scouting.  Call it a passion, call it your ministry, call it your calling, call it whatever.  

 It’s not your livelihood, how you pay the bills.

Theres a difference.

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3 minutes ago, David CO said:

You can't have it both ways. You can't talk about scouters "drinking the cool-aid", and expecting us to give BSA generational loyalty in another thread, and then say that scouting is just a hobby for us in this thread.  

I think you are wrong on both counts.

In the other thread I was confirming there is a generational loyalty theory in council management.

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1 minute ago, FormerProfessional said:

You miss my point of the professionals do this for a love of the program and a job.  When you work for BSA as a professional it’s in the contract that the DE has no outside employment.  DEs work 8-5 m-f plus nights and weekends.

Do you have a paying job that is not Scouting? Do you do Scouting for free, no you pay BSA to do it.  It costs you $$$$ to do Scouting.  Call it a passion, call it your ministry, call it your calling, call it whatever.  

 It’s not your livelihood, how you pay the bills.

Theres a difference.

Seems to me, the volunteers are more hard put to it, since they actually have to lose money to do this, essentially taking a pay cut from their normal careers as opposed to getting money to do it.  I'm not getting your argument, or youre presenting it poorly.  

The difference is that the volunteers are doing this for passion alone, the professionals are doing it for a paycheck... some may have passion, others may not, just like every single other job out there. 

As for work hours... this is 2018, since the advent of the internet and VPN, there's almost no job out there that doesn't work M-F 8-6, plus overnights and weekends.  

Calling it a hobby or calling it a passion matter. 

"Theres a difference."

and THAT is where your condescension comes clearly into view. 

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Posted (edited)

Ok a passionate hobby

A hobby is an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

By definition you are telling me Scouting for you is not done regularly, not in leisure  time, and you get no pleasure out of it?  

You may have an argument about leisure  time but you make Scouting a priority in your leisure time.

For DE’s it’s not in leisure time and sometimes it’s not pleasurable

 

Edited by FormerProfessional

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, FormerProfessional said:

...  Volunteers with contempt for professionals make the career of Scouting not very enjoyable sometimes....

...and professionals who will not answer a phone call and take several days to reply to an email make the life of a District Committee Chair not very enjoyable, especially when the District Chair has to teach the DE how to write a business letter, how to make a sales pitch, how to close a deal...and oh yeah, teach him or her about BSA policies, procedures and practices, not to mention the Aims and Methods because the DE was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Venturer. 

I have trained three DEs over the years, so I get it. My point is that many--not all but many--professionals treat volunteers as some sort of cog in the wheel that can be replaced. Actually, its the DEs who come and go.

 

Edited by an_old_DC

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Let me clear something up. 

I have no hate for volunteers. Scouting can’t work without them. I did not mean to offend anyone.

My point is if the district doesn’t do well it has no effect on the volunteers personal well being or the volunteers family.  You still can pay the bills, eat, all of the basics of life.

For the DE it could cost them their job and therefore effect their family.

The DE has more on the line in the big picture than a volunteer.  

Volunteers can walk away, drop the ball, don’t complete the task and life goes on for the volunteer.  For a DE their job may not.

 

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1 minute ago, FormerProfessional said:

 

My point is if the district doesn’t do well it has no effect on the volunteers personal well being or the volunteers family.  You still can pay the bills, eat, all of the basics of life.

For the DE it could cost them their job and therefore effect their family.

The DE has more on the line in the big picture than a volunteer.  

Volunteers can walk away, drop the ball, don’t complete the task and life goes on for the volunteer.  For a DE their job may not.

 

I understand. I have held key district committee positions for several years. I know how DEs get put on PIPs, and I know what their office environment is like when they are under FOS goals.

Then again, when a district is doing well, too many professionals act like it is magic or as a result of their "guidance", and they fail to acknowledge the role of volunteers' efforts.

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8 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

...and professionals who will not answer a phone call and take several days to reply to an email make the life of a District Committee Chair not very enjoyable, especially when the District Chair has to teach the DE how to write a business letter, how to make a sales pitch, how to close a deal...and oh yeah, teach him or her about BSA policies, procedures and practices, not to mention the Aims and Methods because the DE was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Venturer. 

I have trained three DEs over the years, so I get it. My point is that many--not all but many--professionals treat volunteers as some sort of cog in the wheel that can be replaced. Actually, its the DEs who come and go.

 

I worked with many of those kinds of DEs. There are bad ones. I agree. 

In every district I served there were Red Coats that had been there for 20+ years and are probably still there today.

Some vols step back and wait till the bad professional leaves and get back into it.  

 

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