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New YPT declares corner ripping for Totin Chip/Whittlin Chip as Hazing?

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19 hours ago, blw2 said:

yeah, I never bought into the corner cutting thing either.  They earned the card or they didn't.  Don't make up requirements.

I view the corner cutting as being similar to getting "points" on a driver's license. When you get to a certain number of points, you lose your license.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

Why isn't cutting the corner of your chip more like the police officer cutting the corner of your license? A point or two for speeding eventually goes away. You never regain the corner of you chip.

Because it is permanent. What other "punishment" or corrective action do we take in BSA that leaves a permanent mark? You can never regain that cut corner. It builds resentment and does nothing, on its own, to teach better skills. Cutting the corner of a card is as an effective method of corrective action as making someone sing for their stuff back.

In thinking about this, I considered other "inappropriate usage" violations my scouts might have at home. If my scout was using their tablet or their PS4 inappropriately, I would not take out a knife and permanently damage their tablet or their PS4 controller as a constant and permanent reminder of previous transgressions. I would take away their usage until they could demonstrate that they can use such items appropriately. Cutting the corner feels almost like we hold a multi-year grudge against them.

My son has a bow. If I saw him use it in an unsafe manner, I would take it away from him and not permit him to use it until he demonstrates he can consistently use it safely. I would not take out a knife and cut some permanent mark on the riser that would be a constant reminder to him in future years that he was previously irresponsible when he was younger.

What do we cut off the scout(er) that accidentally violates the YPT? ;)

What do we say to the scout that catches an adult doing something wrong or incorrect when they ask us what they get to cut off of ours?

I've been in two frats and through Army Airborne boot camp (which was easy compared to the treatment I received at my actual Airborne Infantry unit) and while I would agree that there are certainly worse forms of hazing but also know that the severity of one doesn't invalidate the other.

Scars from knife wounds also are permanent.  

 

Also, for the tablet misusage, cut corners from the cyber-chip.  

Edited by perdidochas
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In regard to the lost items, it is common now for the leader with the item in question to simply ask about it and tell the owner to come after the assemble to claim it.  That then puts the onus on the owner if they choose to claim it right then, or a leader of the unit in which the owner participates will come and get it and then later return it (?).  I tend to agree that we have leaned way too far to the other side with these things.  Fortunately, in spite of our seemingly constant over the top responses to things once simply part of life, we still have kids come out on the sunny side more often than some might expect.  This too is a coping experience, sometimes for we old people.

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40 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

card that can be easily replaced

This is the first time someone suggested a new card - and I would be more OK with that solution but cutting the corner cannot be repaired or replaced as you eluded to earlier.

 

8 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Scars from knife wounds also are permanent.  

You don't need a scar to have your card revoked or a corner cut, and if a scout did something bad enough that actually resulted in a cut/scar, cutting a corner after the fact would not have changed that - and again, it teaches nothing that would prohibit a scar in the future. It is a form of permanent punishment, it isn't education.

I fail to see why corporal punishment of card is deemed an effective means of education. The Guide to Safe Scouting states that, "Discipline used in Scouting must be constructive and reflect Scouting’s values. Corporal punishment is never permitted. Disciplinary activities involving isolation, humiliation, or ridicule are prohibited."

IMO, cutting a corner is not constructive nor does it reflect Scouting's values. YMMV.

 

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54 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But cutting a corner of a $0.19 card...

Not to derail the discussion, but I assume you are being "figurative" with the price there.  I don't believe that the BSA currently sells ANYTHING for 19 cents - or anything under a dollar, for that matter.  :D

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22 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Not to derail the discussion, but I assume you are being "figurative" with the price there.  I don't believe that the BSA currently sells ANYTHING for 19 cents - or anything under a dollar, for that matter.  :D

https://www.scoutshop.org/totin-chip-pocket-certificate-single-34397.html $0.19 each

What I find hilarious is that it is now a restricted item requiring paperwork

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

https://www.scoutshop.org/totin-chip-pocket-certificate-single-34397.html $0.19 each

What I find hilarious is that it is now a restricted item requiring paperwork

Well, there's a surprise.  You sure that isn't the version of the web site from 1962 or something?  :D

Maybe it's what they call a "loss leader."  You get on the web site for that and end up paying $6 for some patch that it cost them 30 cents to make in Bangladesh.

Edited by NJCubScouter

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1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

Not to derail the discussion,

LOL! Too late! :D:laugh:

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20 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

LOL! Too late! :D:laugh:

I know.  In this forum there is no way not to derail the discussion.

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2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

 

 

 

The thought that removing a corner of the Totin' chip for safety infractions amounts to hazing just blows my mind.  When my Cubs earned their whittling chip, they received it with one corner already removed by me...  We had a three strikes rule.  Minor infractions would result in removing a corner and a little remedial training.  If you lost all three corners, you lost the chip and had to redo it to earn another one.  Major infractions would have been dealt with differently, but I never had one.  

Never had a parent complain.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

 

I fail to see why corporal punishment of card is deemed an effective means of education. 

 

Corporal punishment of a card? :confused:

I once saw an egregious example of corporal punishment of a rope. They gave it a real lashing. 

 

Edited by David CO
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19 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

What about taking the card and holding it until the Scout re-qualifies for the card by doing all the requirements again?  Why does there have to be any form of hazing at all?  

why hold it at all?  It's just petty and silly, and the scouts would see that too, me thinks....   no different that any of the requirements for a rank, in a way.

Let's pick a Scout rank requirement as an example...tie a taught line hitch

I walk up to a scout rank or higher and ask them to help this young new scout work on his Scout badge.  "he needs help with his taught line hitch"

(this was a bad example for me...I keep wanting to write midshipman's hitch)

Anyway, so he forgot..... what to do...rip that patch off his shirt till he relearns the knot?    no way.  That would be silly, right?

Instead you'd just give the guy a bit of help, coaching him to remind him how to do the knot.... or perhaps pointing him to another scout to do it.  Nobody would pull his rank.

So....he 'forgets' some element of proper 'tote n chipmanship'..... coach the guy and move on with the rest of a great day....

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51 minutes ago, blw2 said:

 

That would be silly, right?

 

Right. That's the whole idea. It's supposed to be silly.

When scout units clip the corners or sing for lost items, they are being silly. They are turning an otherwise tense disciplinary/learning moment into a fun and silly moment. It is intended to diffuse anxiety, not create it.

Unfortunately, some people have no sense of humor. They take themselves too seriously. They just don't get fun and silly. They want too make a Supreme Court case out of everything. That sort of person would not do well in my unit. We like fun and silly. I would suggest that those people look elsewhere for their scouting.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, blw2 said:

 

Anyway, so he forgot..... what to do...rip that patch off his shirt till he relearns the knot? 

 

That would be great! Do if with a drum role and all the ceremony. Make a big joke about it. Very funny. :D

 

Edited by David CO

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17 hours ago, David CO said:

Corporal punishment of a card? :confused:

I once saw an egregious example of corporal punishment of a rope. They gave it a real lashing. 

 

We tend to whip our ropes

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