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Gwaihir

New YPT declares corner ripping for Totin Chip/Whittlin Chip as Hazing?

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38 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Why isn't cutting the corner of your chip more like the police officer cutting the corner of your license? A point or two for speeding eventually goes away. You never regain the corner of you chip.

Because it is permanent. What other "punishment" or corrective action do we take in BSA that leaves a permanent mark? You can never regain that cut corner. It builds resentment and does nothing, on its own, to teach better skills. Cutting the corner of a card is as an effective method of corrective action as making someone sing for their stuff back.

With all due respect, it is very easy to "regain" a corner of your Totin Chip, as I can testify to. You can either A) Retake the training or B) Teach the training to the younger Scouts. In my troop growing up, there was a 3rd way PAUL BUNYAN AXEMAN (emphasis)

I could that ripping up a card,  taking a card away, taking away the wood tool etc for a minor infraction will also" It builds resentment and does nothing, on its own, to teach better skills." and " ...is as an effective method of corrective action as making someone sing for their stuff back."

The cutting of a corner is a warning, and provides a physical reminder they need to be careful and be safe. And just as  if things were completely taken away, they can always take or teach the  training and get a new card

In thinking about this, I considered other "inappropriate usage" violations my scouts might have at home. If my scout was using their tablet or their PS4 inappropriately, I would not take out a knife and permanently damage their tablet or their PS4 controller as a constant and permanent reminder of previous transgressions. I would take away their usage until they could demonstrate that they can use such items appropriately. Cutting the corner feels almost like we hold a multi-year grudge against them.

I agree taking out a knife and damaging an expensive piece of electronics would be overkill. But I have seen people do it nonetheless. That is the parents' choice. But cutting a corner of a $0.19 card that can be easily replaced when re-earned is a completely different story IMHO

 

 

38 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

What do we cut off the scout(er) that accidentally violates the YPT? ;)

For me that is not a joking matter. You asked "What other "punishment" or corrective action do we take in BSA that leaves a permanent mark? The answer to that is being placed in the Ineligible Volunteer Files (IVF) and having your membership permanently revoked. There was a long time Scouter in my district who uncovered some financial shenanigans at the council level. They used the "no riding in the back of the truck" rule to place him in the IVF. Iron is One of the pros involved in banning the Scouter later had other pros riding in the back of a truck at camp.

Worse was a friend of mine. The ACCUSATION of a YPT violation had her placed in the IVF, and permanently barred from volunteering. Even when a criminal investigation was conducted, and cleared her of the accusation, she was still kept in the IVF.

I've been in two frats and through Army Airborne boot camp (which was easy compared to the treatment I received at my actual Airborne Infantry unit) and while I would agree that there are certainly worse forms of hazing but also know that the severity of one doesn't invalidate the other.

1) Thank you for your sevice.

2) we will have to agree to disagree. I cannot see you can compare cutting corners to true hazing.

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I've seen similar arguments over time in regards to what was tradition now being seen as hazing.

For example, when I was at Texas A&M I learned how they made a lot of the traditions illegal for various reasons. Some had been made illegal within the corps years before I arrived and some after. All for good reasons at the time, but the resistance to those changes was incredible and can still cause some folks to go red face and bug-eye'd with foam flecks.

Two examples. 

To say a cadet was motivated and/or doing great you used the term, "Red A^^".  The history of that phrase dated back where upper class men would routinely whip a freshman's behind with paddles or wire or whatever. It was so bad that they had regular inspections where the freshmen had to stick their bare behinds outside their quarters and a doctor would make inspections looking for excessive damage. Treating some cases on the spot before they got worse and requiring a waiting period so a cadet could heal. At times putting the cadet in the infirmary. EVEN with that inspection going on and the results showing excessive abuse, it was still considered to be okay to whip people by all levels of the cadet corp, including the officers of the military branches there and university until finally something happened to change that. But it took a lot of effort to stop that tradition because people couldn't see the harm in it even if it did require a doctor to routinely inspect for excessive damage.  

Sometimes it takes single isolated event to change things. It happened once when a freshman arrived on campus after driving for almost all day to get to school. The next morning two sophomores woke this freshman up early because he had arrived "late" to school. They proceeded to push this cadet through intense physical activity which ended an hour later with his death from exhaustion. All that year and the next, it was a major problem for some folks who thought this wasn't that big of a deal. They belittled the freshman with comments about weakness etc. They trivialize the situation. All sorts of attempts were made to get around it, but the rule stuck with serious repercussions. 

Yes, the above cases are extreme and in our views now, I'm sure we can all hold it as perfectly reasonable that some things had to change. But back when they happened they were not extreme. Time and attitudes have changed. 

Society changes over time. If we look back, we can truthfully state that things that our grandparent's believed, things that our parent's believed, and things that we were taught as children in a lot of cases don't hold true today because society has changed. What was considered to be perfectly reasonable at one time now makes us shudder. Sometimes we overreach in our efforts to curb excessive behavior. And sometimes we enable it for far too long just for the sake of tradition or because we don't see the harm in it ourselves. It should never be an excuse that we don't see the harm in what we consider as something as inconsequential or mild in our view, and refuse to see that on the other side there might be a really good reason not to do it. 

I'm sure none of us want to make a scout feel less about themselves. 

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On 4/17/2018 at 10:13 AM, Jameson76 said:

We ran into that at some meeting and definitely had a WTF moment.  The leader expressed (quite sincerely) that is was hazing and the totin chit was the scouts property and we were "stealing" it etc etc

Wisely we just let it pass and did not go into that we also take knives and other items if there is an issue.  Yep it may be their property but at the end of the day, leaders are in fact leaders

Had not heard of the lost items concern.  Seems we have jumped the proverbial shark.  That is a great part of summer camp fun, standing in front of a scout, asking if they have lost something, them saying no while you are holding the item with their name on it as you speak with them.

In terms of the totin' chip, if that were the interpretation, troops should start stamping the cards, property of Troop xxx. 

On 4/17/2018 at 9:45 AM, Gwaihir said:

I haven't taken YPT 2 yet, but I'm hearing from council that ripping corners is now considered hazing. 

 

So, apparently, is if you find a lost neckerchief slide or dropped flashlight and call out to the group something like "who's neckerchief" slide is this? that too is now hazing. 

 

wtf? 

How in the world is that hazing?  IMHO, it's kindness to offer to give somebody back something that is lost.  

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20 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

imo, treating the taking of a corner of a totin chip card, or asking a group "who's item is this" (where there is no name on it) and the person's who's item it is comes up and gets their lost item (no idea who put words in my mouth about singing or dancing, but I was clearly stating the simple act of asking the group who's item something was so that they could come up and get their gear back is now considered hazing) diminishes the seriousness of actual dehumanizing hazing to the point wolf has been cried so often, no one will care.  We are seeing this very thing played out with other social issues... when you lump everything in with serious offenses... nothing is serious and no one cares.  

I pretty much agree.  

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19 hours ago, blw2 said:

yeah, I never bought into the corner cutting thing either.  They earned the card or they didn't.  Don't make up requirements.

I view the corner cutting as being similar to getting "points" on a driver's license. When you get to a certain number of points, you lose your license.  

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1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

Why isn't cutting the corner of your chip more like the police officer cutting the corner of your license? A point or two for speeding eventually goes away. You never regain the corner of you chip.

Because it is permanent. What other "punishment" or corrective action do we take in BSA that leaves a permanent mark? You can never regain that cut corner. It builds resentment and does nothing, on its own, to teach better skills. Cutting the corner of a card is as an effective method of corrective action as making someone sing for their stuff back.

In thinking about this, I considered other "inappropriate usage" violations my scouts might have at home. If my scout was using their tablet or their PS4 inappropriately, I would not take out a knife and permanently damage their tablet or their PS4 controller as a constant and permanent reminder of previous transgressions. I would take away their usage until they could demonstrate that they can use such items appropriately. Cutting the corner feels almost like we hold a multi-year grudge against them.

My son has a bow. If I saw him use it in an unsafe manner, I would take it away from him and not permit him to use it until he demonstrates he can consistently use it safely. I would not take out a knife and cut some permanent mark on the riser that would be a constant reminder to him in future years that he was previously irresponsible when he was younger.

What do we cut off the scout(er) that accidentally violates the YPT? ;)

What do we say to the scout that catches an adult doing something wrong or incorrect when they ask us what they get to cut off of ours?

I've been in two frats and through Army Airborne boot camp (which was easy compared to the treatment I received at my actual Airborne Infantry unit) and while I would agree that there are certainly worse forms of hazing but also know that the severity of one doesn't invalidate the other.

Scars from knife wounds also are permanent.  

 

Also, for the tablet misusage, cut corners from the cyber-chip.  

Edited by perdidochas
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In regard to the lost items, it is common now for the leader with the item in question to simply ask about it and tell the owner to come after the assemble to claim it.  That then puts the onus on the owner if they choose to claim it right then, or a leader of the unit in which the owner participates will come and get it and then later return it (?).  I tend to agree that we have leaned way too far to the other side with these things.  Fortunately, in spite of our seemingly constant over the top responses to things once simply part of life, we still have kids come out on the sunny side more often than some might expect.  This too is a coping experience, sometimes for we old people.

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40 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

card that can be easily replaced

This is the first time someone suggested a new card - and I would be more OK with that solution but cutting the corner cannot be repaired or replaced as you eluded to earlier.

 

8 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Scars from knife wounds also are permanent.  

You don't need a scar to have your card revoked or a corner cut, and if a scout did something bad enough that actually resulted in a cut/scar, cutting a corner after the fact would not have changed that - and again, it teaches nothing that would prohibit a scar in the future. It is a form of permanent punishment, it isn't education.

I fail to see why corporal punishment of card is deemed an effective means of education. The Guide to Safe Scouting states that, "Discipline used in Scouting must be constructive and reflect Scouting’s values. Corporal punishment is never permitted. Disciplinary activities involving isolation, humiliation, or ridicule are prohibited."

IMO, cutting a corner is not constructive nor does it reflect Scouting's values. YMMV.

 

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54 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But cutting a corner of a $0.19 card...

Not to derail the discussion, but I assume you are being "figurative" with the price there.  I don't believe that the BSA currently sells ANYTHING for 19 cents - or anything under a dollar, for that matter.  :D

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22 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Not to derail the discussion, but I assume you are being "figurative" with the price there.  I don't believe that the BSA currently sells ANYTHING for 19 cents - or anything under a dollar, for that matter.  :D

https://www.scoutshop.org/totin-chip-pocket-certificate-single-34397.html $0.19 each

What I find hilarious is that it is now a restricted item requiring paperwork

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5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

https://www.scoutshop.org/totin-chip-pocket-certificate-single-34397.html $0.19 each

What I find hilarious is that it is now a restricted item requiring paperwork

Well, there's a surprise.  You sure that isn't the version of the web site from 1962 or something?  :D

Maybe it's what they call a "loss leader."  You get on the web site for that and end up paying $6 for some patch that it cost them 30 cents to make in Bangladesh.

Edited by NJCubScouter

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2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

 

 

 

The thought that removing a corner of the Totin' chip for safety infractions amounts to hazing just blows my mind.  When my Cubs earned their whittling chip, they received it with one corner already removed by me...  We had a three strikes rule.  Minor infractions would result in removing a corner and a little remedial training.  If you lost all three corners, you lost the chip and had to redo it to earn another one.  Major infractions would have been dealt with differently, but I never had one.  

Never had a parent complain.

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