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New YPT declares corner ripping for Totin Chip/Whittlin Chip as Hazing?

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1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

Telling a Scout he can't have something back until he sings for it, the Scout saying go ahead and keep it, and the Dad (who is also a lawyer) coming to the next meeting reading the SM the riot act for stealing his son's gear.  Yeah - that really happened - our Troop never did the "I'm a little teapot" thing ever again. 

We would have shown him the door and invited him to find another unit. The SM is in charge. Nobody disrespects the SM.

 

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The boys asked me recently to perform the little teapot song for old times sake. Bullies.

My son had a corner clip to his Fireman's Chit, was very effective. The story of that incident has grown in the troop lore. I am not so upset about the "damage to a scouts property" argument because a lot of boys had 2 or 3 cards because they kept losing them (and we made them re-do the whole training--my bad)

2 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

I recently did the new YPT training (online).  I don't recall it mentioning the Totin' Chip or ripping corners.

It is NOT a hazing thing it is a SAFETY thing...papercuts.

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1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

Real lesson learned?  Telling a Scout he can't have something back until he sings for it, the Scout saying go ahead and keep it, and the Dad (who is also a lawyer) coming to the next meeting reading the SM the riot act for stealing his son's gear.  Yeah - that really happened - our Troop never did the "I'm a little teapot" thing ever again. 

Sounds like a real fun troop... 

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17 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

It is NOT a hazing thing it is a SAFETY thing...papercuts.

One of our new scouts thought KP and the 3 pot method was hazing.  The SPL looked at him and said work is not hazing, if they did decide to haze him it would involve a good bit of orientation and training his part,  you can't expect to fully appreciate hazing unless you have been properly trained.  The SPL has a future in corporate America

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2 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

... Telling a Scout he can't have something back until he sings for it, the Scout saying go ahead and keep it, ... 

One of my older sons left something on the table.  It was part of what he was bringing home as a carry item.  But the SPL got it first and would not give it back.  Only later as they were assembled to go home did the SPL bring the item up and say that my son left it on the table.  He asked my son to sing for it.  Watching the physical reaction of my son was very sad.  Worse though was I saw him try something like that on someone else at the next camp out so he could do it to them.  Perhaps the lesson was intended to be to take responsibility for your stuff, but he already knew that lesson.  It's just he was busy doing another part of the cleaning at that moment.  Instead, the lesson taught was to look for opportunities to knock the other guy down.   To put rules ahead of compassion and friendliness.  

Because of that ... and knowing the personality of my youngest ... I told him that if it happened to him that he should acknowledge it's his.  But if he's asked to sing or something else for it, just tell them to keep the object and he can keep his pride.  I didn't want that son learning the lesson the earlier son learned.  

Yeah, I do consider that innocent singing hazing by my experience and by the definition of what it is.

Is cutting a corner hazing?  I can see both sides.  I'd prefer to share the reminder to be safe.  And, if he's not safe, don't let him have a knife.  

Edited by fred johnson
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imo, treating the taking of a corner of a totin chip card, or asking a group "who's item is this" (where there is no name on it) and the person's who's item it is comes up and gets their lost item (no idea who put words in my mouth about singing or dancing, but I was clearly stating the simple act of asking the group who's item something was so that they could come up and get their gear back is now considered hazing) diminishes the seriousness of actual dehumanizing hazing to the point wolf has been cried so often, no one will care.  We are seeing this very thing played out with other social issues... when you lump everything in with serious offenses... nothing is serious and no one cares.  

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Specific actions may or may not be hazing depending on context, intent and other factors. Is having a scout do push-ups hazing? If it is in context of encouraging physical fitness, probably not. Making a first year scout do push-ups to get his breakfast, yes.

I may not be able to define it; but I know it when I see it.

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1 hour ago, fred johnson said:

One of my older sons left something on the table.  It was part of what he was bringing home as a carry item.  But the SPL got it first and would not give it back.  Only later as they were assembled to go home did the SPL bring the item up and say that my son left it on the table.  He asked my son to sing for it.  Watching the physical reaction of my son was very sad.  Worse though was I saw him try something like that on someone else at the next camp out so he could do it to them.  Perhaps the lesson was intended to be to take responsibility for your stuff, but he already knew that lesson.  It's just he was busy doing another part of the cleaning at that moment.  Instead, the lesson taught was to look for opportunities to knock the other guy down.   To put rules ahead of compassion and friendliness.  

Because of that ... and knowing the personality of my youngest ... I told him that if it happened to him that he should acknowledge it's his.  But if he's asked to sing or something else for it, just tell them to keep the object and he can keep his pride.  I didn't want that son learning the lesson the earlier son learned.  

Yeah, I do consider that innocent singing hazing by my experience and by the definition of what it is.

Is cutting a corner hazing?  I can see both sides.  I'd prefer to share the reminder to be safe.  And, if he's not safe, don't let him have a knife.  

That’s not right. The SPL must’ve been greedy, “power hungry”, or the one scout that was left out and wanted attention. 

I don’t know if this is considered hazing or “over the top”, but if I find something I simply ask (even if I know it’s theirs) if it is there’s and when they say yes, I just hand it back and let it be done. Simple as that.

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25 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

That’s not right. The SPL must’ve been greedy, “power hungry”, or the one scout that was left out and wanted attention. 

I don’t know if this is considered hazing or “over the top”, but if I find something I simply ask (even if I know it’s theirs) if it is there’s and when they say yes, I just hand it back and let it be done. Simple as that.

I agree.  It should be a simple thing reflecting "a scout is friendly".  What happened is it was a time when the troop was into teaching lessons.  Sometimes those lessons became forced.  So I'm sure someone was explaining to the SPL how to make an example of someone.  I remember when the SPL would not give it back.  My son was looking at him like he was not a very honest or friendly person.  It broke trust even then as he knew there was a reason it would not be coming back.  The sad thing is before my son would go to the SPL's house a few times to socialize.  He never went again after that.  

Maybe it's not the song thing that bugs me as the forced lesson.  The great thing in scouting is learning from the natural results of your choices and actions and non-actions.  A lot is lost when it becomes a forced trick with someone looking to make a point.  Like the SPL who casually drops trash after the cleanup line has gone by to make his point.  

Edited by fred johnson

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28 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I have heard of 'micro-aggressions' could there be 'nano-hazings'?

No doubt.  I presume there are a series of college courses and courses of study detailing these items.  The degree would be in Nano Studies, and then you can work in the Ministry of Silly Walks

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2 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

No doubt.  I presume there are a series of college courses and courses of study detailing these items.  The degree would be in Nano Studies, and then you can work in the Ministry of Silly Walks

Perhaps you are thinking of Scouting University? :)

Nano Studies is a serious course of study at real colleges.

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yeah, I never bought into the corner cutting thing either.  They earned the card or they didn't.  Don't make up requirements.

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37 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

  The degree would be in Nano Studies, and then you can work in the Ministry of Silly Walks

I say, Sir, I say-you bully me Sir. You bully me with pico-aggressions. Obviously you are lookingfor more YPT training.

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18 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I say, Sir, I say-you bully me Sir. You bully me with pico-aggressions. Obviously you are lookingfor more YPT training.

Image result for ministry of silly walks

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