Our Council's New Gender Inclusive Branding

[Pselb 36]

And everyone jumped on the band wagon of the current circus and lo and behold, after all the changes, it ain't a circus anymore.....  And when all the dust clears, one will quickly realize that what's left isn't Boy Scouts anymore. 

[CalicoPenn 728]

20 hours ago, FireStone said:

Is it really possible to distinguish a "BSA" fleir-de-lis from a non-BSA one? It's a pretty common shape that pre-dates the BSA. Lots of Scouting organizations around the world use it, some extremely similar to the BSA variety symbol. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if this is really even an enforcable mark. I always throught the trademark was the full logo, with the eagle graphic. 

It can be distinguished and it is an enforceable mark.  It can't be copyrighted (because as you point out, it's a common shape that pre-dates the BSA) but it can be made distinctive enough from other fleur-de-lis' to be able to be trademarked.  The New Orleans Saints logo, which is also a fleur-de-lis, is also trademarked.  While neither the BSA or the NFL can claim all fleur-de-lis fall under their trademark, they can claim their specific designs to be trademarked.  This is where it gets a bit esoteric for most of us.  Compare the BSA and the Saints' logos - they both look like fleur-de-lis but they are different.  The blade on the Saints fleur is longer and narrower than the BSA's.  The BSA's is actually quite noticeably squatter - dumpier even.  Its these little differences in ratios (in the body of the design, in the size of the blades, in the curvature of the arms, in the distances between the tips of the arms and "feet") that can make something as common as a fleur-de-lis trademarkable - just as McDonalds can trademark what is essentially the letter M - but only in the "golden arches font" that we're all familiar with.

20 hours ago, FireStone said:

Is it really possible to distinguish a "BSA" fleir-de-lis from a non-BSA one? It's a pretty common shape that pre-dates the BSA. Lots of Scouting organizations around the world use it, some extremely similar to the BSA variety symbol. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if this is really even an enforcable mark. I always throught the trademark was the full logo, with the eagle graphic. 

It can be distinguished and it is an enforceable mark.  It can't be copyrighted (because as you point out, it's a common shape that pre-dates the BSA) but it can be made distinctive enough from other fleur-de-lis' to be able to be trademarked.  The New Orleans Saints logo, which is also a fleur-de-lis, is also trademarked.  While neither the BSA or the NFL can claim all fleur-de-lis fall under their trademark, they can claim their specific designs to be trademarked.  This is where it gets a bit esoteric for most of us.  Compare the BSA and the Saints' logos - they both look like fleur-de-lis but they are different.  The blade on the Saints fleur is longer and narrower than the BSA's.  The BSA's is actually quite noticeably squatter - dumpier even.  Its these little differences in ratios (in the body of the design, in the size of the blades, in the curvature of the arms, in the distances between the tips of the arms and "feet") that can make something as common as a fleur-de-lis trademarkable - just as McDonalds can trademark what is essentially the letter M - but only in the "golden arches font" that we're all familiar with.

[CalicoPenn 728]

20 hours ago, FireStone said:

Is it really possible to distinguish a "BSA" fleir-de-lis from a non-BSA one? It's a pretty common shape that pre-dates the BSA. Lots of Scouting organizations around the world use it, some extremely similar to the BSA variety symbol. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if this is really even an enforcable mark. I always throught the trademark was the full logo, with the eagle graphic. 

It can be distinguished and it is an enforceable mark.  It can't be copyrighted (because as you point out, it's a common shape that pre-dates the BSA) but it can be made distinctive enough from other fleur-de-lis' to be able to be trademarked.  The New Orleans Saints logo, which is also a fleur-de-lis, is also trademarked.  While neither the BSA or the NFL can claim all fleur-de-lis fall under their trademark, they can claim their specific designs to be trademarked.  This is where it gets a bit esoteric for most of us.  Compare the BSA and the Saints' logos - they both look like fleur-de-lis but they are different.  The blade on the Saints fleur is longer and narrower than the BSA's.  The BSA's is actually quite noticeably squatter - dumpier even.  Its these little differences in ratios (in the body of the design, in the size of the blades, in the curvature of the arms, in the distances between the tips of the arms and "feet") that can make something as common as a fleur-de-lis trademarkable - just as McDonalds can trademark what is essentially the letter M - but only in the "golden arches font" that we're all familiar with.

20 hours ago, FireStone said:

Is it really possible to distinguish a "BSA" fleir-de-lis from a non-BSA one? It's a pretty common shape that pre-dates the BSA. Lots of Scouting organizations around the world use it, some extremely similar to the BSA variety symbol. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if this is really even an enforcable mark. I always throught the trademark was the full logo, with the eagle graphic. 

It can be distinguished and it is an enforceable mark.  It can't be copyrighted (because as you point out, it's a common shape that pre-dates the BSA) but it can be made distinctive enough from other fleur-de-lis' to be able to be trademarked.  The New Orleans Saints logo, which is also a fleur-de-lis, is also trademarked.  While neither the BSA or the NFL can claim all fleur-de-lis fall under their trademark, they can claim their specific designs to be trademarked.  This is where it gets a bit esoteric for most of us.  Compare the BSA and the Saints' logos - they both look like fleur-de-lis but they are different.  The blade on the Saints fleur is longer and narrower than the BSA's.  The BSA's is actually quite noticeably squatter - dumpier even.  Its these little differences in ratios (in the body of the design, in the size of the blades, in the curvature of the arms, in the distances between the tips of the arms and "feet") that can make something as common as a fleur-de-lis trademarkable - just as McDonalds can trademark what is essentially the letter M - but only in the "golden arches font" that we're all familiar with.

[fred johnson 935]

@CalicoPenn ... Your argument is repetitive.

[Oldscout448 683]

4 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

@CalicoPenn ... Your argument is repetitive.

Oh good, for a second there, I assumed the pain meds were making me see double in a weird vertical sort of way.

[The Latin Scot 960]

9 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

@CalicoPenn ... Your argument is repetitive.

So it wasn't just me then! LOL I was pretty sure I had lost it; I'm far too young to be going senile!

[Jameson76 1407]

14 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

@CalicoPenn ... Your argument is repetitive.

[CalicoPenn 728]

Sorry - I have no idea how that happened - I think I'm going to blame Microsoft 10

[NJCubScouter 1389]

21 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

Sorry - I have no idea how that happened - I think I'm going to blame Microsoft 10

That would make sense, Windows 10 is the root of all evil.

If you would like I can edit out/delete the repetition, and then I guess I would delete all of these responses regarding it.  Let me know.

[David CO 1784]

35 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Windows 10 is the root of all evil.

It was originally supposed to be called Windows 666. 

[Pselb 36]

On 4/2/2018 at 9:29 PM, Pselb said:

And everyone jumped on the band wagon of the current circus and lo and behold, after all the changes, it ain't a circus anymore.....  And when all the dust clears, one will quickly realize that what's left isn't Boy Scouts anymore. 

@Eagle1993

It's called Fuzzy Logic.  Scoop up a handful of sand.  You now have a "handful of sand".  Take off a grain.  Do you still have a "handful of sand"?  Deep doing that and at what point does it NOT become a "handful of sand"?  If the Boy Scouts keep making changes at what point is it no longer BOY Scouts of America?  From what is being discussed on the forum the question becomes more and more relevant. 

[qwazse 4230]

28 minutes ago, Pselb said:

@Eagle1993

It's called Fuzzy Logic.  Scoop up a handful of sand.  You now have a "handful of sand".  Take off a grain.  Do you still have a "handful of sand"?  Deep doing that and at what point does it NOT become a "handful of sand"?  If the Boy Scouts keep making changes at what point is it no longer BOY Scouts of America?  From what is being discussed on the forum the question becomes more and more relevant. 

Unless, we are adding grains that should have never been taken off!

[ParkMan 1293]

2 hours ago, Pselb said:

@Eagle1993

It's called Fuzzy Logic.  Scoop up a handful of sand.  You now have a "handful of sand".  Take off a grain.  Do you still have a "handful of sand"?  Deep doing that and at what point does it NOT become a "handful of sand"?  If the Boy Scouts keep making changes at what point is it no longer BOY Scouts of America?  From what is being discussed on the forum the question becomes more and more relevant. 

I see it a bit differently.  

The BSA is not defined by what it once was.  It is defined by what it is now.  We can all debate if the BSA has lost it's way.  But it is what it is.  We can choose to mourn the passing of what was or to figure out how to make the best way forward.

[Eagledad 2659]

11 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I see it a bit differently.  

The BSA is not defined by what it once was.  It is defined by what it is now.  We can all debate if the BSA has lost it's way.  But it is what it is.  We can choose to mourn the passing of what was or to figure out how to make the best way forward.

We aren’t just mourning the loss of a noble youth program originally intended to make boys into moral and ethical decision makers for the rest of their adult life, some of us are mourning our passion that seems to have no where to go. We have a lot of experience to hand down that doesn’t seem to apply much to the future BSA. 

Barry

[ParkMan 1293]

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the wisdom and experience you have.  I am in awe of your Scouting accomplishments.  

Scouting today is fundamentally the same program it has always been.  The youth we serve have changed far more than the program has.  Even the introduction of girls is a smaller change than the changes in boys over the last 100 years.

The BSA needs leaders with your depth of experience to guide us as we go forward.  Some of that leadership needs to remind us of the fundamentals inherent in Scouting.  Some of that leadership needs to be in looking at the challenges facing the program today and helping to devise solutions.