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Jameson76

Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

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31 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Lone Scouting?  Not optimal, but better than nothing, at least at the beginning.

Many thanks for your high praise of Lone Scouting.

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5 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

The short answer of course is the same thing that would happen any time you don't have enough adults to conduct an activity --- you either find them or you don't conduct the activity. 

1) This seems the least likely and the easiest to avoid or correct.  You don't really need a female scouter, you need an adult female who has taken YPT.  I don't think I've ever been at a meeting where there wasn't at least one adult female; troops will probably need to get more women to take YPT, but that's a 45 minute online class --- hardly a difficult ask.

2) This one will be harder, but we've had occasional weekends when we couldn't go because we didn't have enough adults; when that happens you just don't go.

3) Harder certainly, but since this is a once a year phenomenon scheduled months in advance it really shouldn't be that difficult.

Parents who want their kids to experience scouting are going to make the sacrifices necessary to enable them to experience scouting, that's what happens today.  Parents who want their daughters to experience scouting will probably be self selecting as a group willing to make a bit of extra sacrifice to make that happen.

I admit I have not taken YPT2 yet. But from reading hte Cub literature on YP, anytime a female is present you MUST have a registered female over 21 in attendance.  I will restate the question, do you send the girls home form the meeting, send everyone home, or ignore the rules.

Apparently the consensus on meeting is ignore the rule.

I'll rephrase 2 and 3

2) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to go on a weekend camp out, do you cancel the trip for everyone, cancel the trip just for the girls, or ignore the rules/

3) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to stay the entire week of summer camp, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, talk tot he camp to see if they can help?

3A) what happens if you have a week long trek and cannot get a registered female over 21 to go, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, or ignore the rules?

 

One thing thing not mentioned but can be done now: 18-20 year old female ASMs. Do we treat them as adults and they do not need a female over 21 with them, or do we treat them like Venturing "adult participants" and they need over 21 registered female? Asking because we have a 18 female who wants to be an ASM with her twin brother.

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9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One thing thing not mentioned but can be done now: 18-20 year old female ASMs. Do we treat them as adults and they do not need a female over 21 with them, or do we treat them like Venturing "adult participants" and they need over 21 registered female? Asking because we have a 18 female who wants to be an ASM with her twin brother.

Image result for the devil is in the details

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16 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I'll rephrase 2 and 3

2) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to go on a weekend camp out, do you cancel the trip for everyone, cancel the trip just for the girls, or ignore the rules/

3) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to stay the entire week of summer camp, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, talk tot he camp to see if they can help?

3A) what happens if you have a week long trek and cannot get a registered female over 21 to go, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, or ignore the rules?

 

Cancel it just for the girls.   That will give the incentive for one of the girls' moms to step up and volunteer.

Doing otherwise (cancelling for the boys too) would just make everyone mad at the girls.

Cancelling for just the girls would only upset the girls, and then they can badger their moms to volunteer.

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12 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

2) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to go on a weekend camp out, do you cancel the trip for everyone, cancel the trip just for the girls, or ignore the rules/

3) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to stay the entire week of summer camp, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, talk tot he camp to see if they can help?

3A) what happens if you have a week long trek and cannot get a registered female over 21 to go, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, or ignore the rules?

I already know what the response is going to be, but I think that on #2 and #3A, it is reasonable to cancel just for the girls; same for #3 but you see whether the camp has a solution first.

Unfair?  I mean, any more unfair than life itself?  Well, consider that if the units were NOT going to the same place, but Boys Troop is going to one camp and the Girls Troop is going to another, and Girls Troop does not have sufficient leadership, the boys would still go and the girls would not.  (And that works in reverse, if it is the girls who have sufficient leadership and the boys don't, the girls go and the boys don't.)  How is the "linked" trip to a single campsite really any different?  A troop that has sufficient leadership can go, a troop that doesn't can't.

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47 minutes ago, David CO said:

Many thanks for your high praise of Lone Scouting.

I will assume that that is sarcasm.  But yes, I think Lone Scouting is sub-optimal.  Scouting is a group activity.  Doing it without a group should be a last resort.  I think the BSA agrees with me.

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Posted (edited)

So the new YPT rule, quoted a couple times on these forums from the Early Adopter power point, and duplicated in the presentation our council gave last week is:

One registered adult leader and one other adult, one of which must be 21 years old, and a Youth Protection trained adult female must be present.

So, essentially one adult female, YPT trained, at every meeting, outing, trek, etc. that involves female youth.  I doubt that any higher number of folks today are going to ignore this rule than ignore current YPT guidelines about adult numbers and presence.

As for what to do, I think it will depend on the individual units.  For my unit, I think we'll end up with two troops under one CO, it's more a question of when not whether.  My hope is that  the two units operate separately for the most part.  There are a couple of activities: fundraising and a weekend we camp jointly with our CO's Cub Pack, that I think would make sense to do together, but I don't think the troops should otherwise assume that they're going together.  Of course as with all trips, that will be up to the respective PLCs and not my call. 

As I'm typing this, I think my last sentence answers the question for me.  The YPT rules need always to be followed, if they can't be met for both units than it is up to the respective PLCs to decide if they both go or only one goes.

I guess I disagree with what seems to be the underlying premise of your question, which is that there will regularly be trouble finding females to attend outings.  I am part of a very middle class, middle of the road, mid west troop.  We regularly have women camp with us, including at summer camp, some of them are registered leaders, occasionally it's just a one time outing for a mom who wants to see what her son is experiencing.  If they instituted a rule tomorrow that our all boy troop needed to have a female on every trip I can't think of a single trip that I'd have trouble fully staffing.

Do the rest of the units out there have some dearth of scout mothers who are willing to sleep in a tent ?

Edited by T2Eagle

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1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think the BSA agrees with me.

And as a father of almost a Lone Cub Scout now, I can certainly relate as many of the activities and requirements are geared around a Den or a Pack.

We worked on Maestro over the weekend and found the requirements basically impossible without a Den/Pack:

Do two of the following:
a. Teach your den the words and melody of a song. Perform the song with your den at your den or pack meeting.
b. Create original words for a song. Perform it at your den or pack meeting.
c. Collaborate with your den to compose a den theme song. Perform it at your pack meeting.
d. Write a song with words and music that expresses your feelings about an issue, a person, something you are learning, a point of the Scout Law, etc. Perform it at your den or pack meeting, alone or with a group.
e. Perform a musical number by yourself or with your Webelos den in front of an audience.

----------------------

Only one we can do as written is (e). There are of course a myriad of other Adventures that are worded the same way.

 

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20 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

Do the rest of the units out there have some dearth of scout mothers who are willing to sleep in a tent ?

Mine does.  Most of the moms do not want to go camping.  When my son was in the troop, there was one mom (who was also a committee member and advancement chair) who regularly went camping with the troop, but its "regularly" with an asterisk.  She is the mother of the Scout I have mentioned before who had cerebral palsy and was in a wheelchair.  He could not attend to his "personal needs" without help, and under YP (and common sense) that help could only be provided by a family member, and apparently she was the designated family member.  The Scout and his mother went to summer camp and, at most, one weekend camping trip each year.  We also had a female CC who went on an average of about one camping trip per year.  Taken together, that is still way short of what a Girl Troop is going to need to go camping every month.

Now, if I were to make a prediction (which I don't like doing), it would be that a group of girls who want to do BSA camping would bring along with them a couple of moms who were willing to camp if needed to allow the girls to camp.  But like every other prediction, that and $3 will buy you a cup of Starbucks coffee.

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16 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

.  But like every other prediction, that and $3 will buy you a cup of Starbucks coffee.

As someone who just took his son for a man to man conversation at Starbucks yesterday I am not sure what menu you were ordering from!

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45 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

Do the rest of the units out there have some dearth of scout mothers who are willing to sleep in a tent ?

My unit has only 1 female who camps "regularly." And by that I mean car camping in fair weather. If it is not car camping, i.e. backpacking or survival camping, she and her son will not attend. And I stress fair weather, hint of rain and she and her son will not attend, even if paid in advance. And she is not reliable as she and her son will arrive late and leave early. Especially if she does not get her way.

If we had to depend on her for the girls, they would not be able to camp as much as the boys.

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2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I will assume that that is sarcasm.  But yes, I think Lone Scouting is sub-optimal.  Scouting is a group activity.  Doing it without a group should be a last resort.  I think the BSA agrees with me.

W. D. Boyce, who founded both the Boy Scouts of America and the Lone Scouts of America would have disagreed with you. Boyce did not consider Lone Scouting to be a lesser or sub-optimal form of scouting.

But yes, I do believe the BSA executives would agree with you.

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2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

And as a father of almost a Lone Cub Scout now

 

Welcome to Lone Scouting.

I was a 3rd generation Lone Scout. My great uncle was one of the founding members of Lone Scouts of America.

If you embrace Lone Scouting, with all of its history and tradition, in the same way that others do with BSA, you can have some real fun with it. Good luck.

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2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

And as a father of almost a Lone Cub Scout now, I can certainly relate as many of the activities and requirements are geared around a Den or a Pack.

We worked on Maestro over the weekend and found the requirements basically impossible without a Den/Pack:

Do two of the following:
a. Teach your den the words and melody of a song. Perform the song with your den at your den or pack meeting.
b. Create original words for a song. Perform it at your den or pack meeting.
c. Collaborate with your den to compose a den theme song. Perform it at your pack meeting.
d. Write a song with words and music that expresses your feelings about an issue, a person, something you are learning, a point of the Scout Law, etc. Perform it at your den or pack meeting, alone or with a group.
e. Perform a musical number by yourself or with your Webelos den in front of an audience.

----------------------

Only one we can do as written is (e). There are of course a myriad of other Adventures that are worded the same way.

 

if you are writing about your daughter, then your pack isn't doing "early adopter" right.

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7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I admit I have not taken YPT2 yet. But from reading hte Cub literature on YP, anytime a female is present you MUST have a registered female over 21 in attendance.  I will restate the question, do you send the girls home form the meeting, send everyone home, or ignore the rules.

Apparently the consensus on meeting is ignore the rule.

I'll rephrase 2 and 3

2) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to go on a weekend camp out, do you cancel the trip for everyone, cancel the trip just for the girls, or ignore the rules/

3) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to stay the entire week of summer camp, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, talk tot he camp to see if they can help?

3A) what happens if you have a week long trek and cannot get a registered female over 21 to go, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, or ignore the rules?

So, if I read this right - the scenario is: you've got a unit (pack, troop, crew, whatever) that is co-ed, have male and female scouts that want to attend whatever event, but don't have sufficient female leadership for the girls to attend.

To me, this is easy - you cancel the event for all. 

If you've got a co-ed unit, you don't have boy events and girl events.  The group does things together.  The minute you start saying "the boys can go because we have enough dads, but the girls cannot because we don't have enough moms", you've not longer got a unified unit.  To me that's way worse than canceling an event.

Further, you don't say - "we can't go because we don't have enough moms for the girls".  That's inflamatory.  You simply say - "we don't have sufficient adult leadership to hold the event.

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