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Jameson76

Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

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The thing is, that kind of natural separation is entirely normal at that age. It's simply the way most pre-teen kids think, and so it would be unhealthy to force any legitimately co-ed program on these ages. That's why I hope National is true to it's word and creates a separate program for girls that steers as far away from the boys program as is possibly. No girl/boy patrols, no sharing troops - a total separation of boys and girls in their own programs, even if the girls are working on the same requirements. As far apart as they can be is best for these ages, developmentally speaking. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/4/2018 at 9:24 PM, The Latin Scot said:

The thing is, that kind of natural separation is entirely normal at that age. It's simply the way most pre-teen kids think, and so it would be unhealthy to force any legitimately co-ed program on these ages. That's why I hope National is true to it's word and creates a separate program for girls that steers as far away from the boys program as is possibly. No girl/boy patrols, no sharing troops - a total separation of boys and girls in their own programs, even if the girls are working on the same requirements. As far apart as they can be is best for these ages, developmentally speaking. 

Sadly, it looks like National disagrees. 

Edited by Gwaihir

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Guess I don't really see what the big concern is with coed rules and the like - there has been co-ed Scouting in the US since the 50's; the Polish and Ukrainian Scouts (ZHP and Plast, respectively) have been coed in this country since they "moved" here in the 1950's - not sure why we just don't confer with them to see how they've been dealing with these issues for the past several decades in the US. I'm sure they've figured out most of the 'bugs' by now.

220px-Orlykiada_2007_foto_0011.jpg                                                                                Image may contain: 3 people, sky and outdoor

 Ukrainian "Plastunka" - female member of 'Plast'                                  Polish ZHP (Hufiec/Council "Warmia"

I'm sure they could offer a ton of info  - Just sayin'

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On 4/13/2018 at 11:50 AM, MikeS said:

Guess I don't really see what the big concern is with coed rules and the like - there has been co-ed Scouting in the US since the 50's...

There is also the BPSA-US, active in the states co-ed for over a decade, and active globally for far longer. 

There is no shortage of organizations that BSA members can look to for an example of how to deal with specific issues surrounding co-ed activity logistics. The conversation here does seem to frequently devolve into something along the lines of, "How will we have enough separate toilets for boys AND girls?" But in reality, these other co-ed scouting organizations have made it all work and continue to do so. I suspect some of them might even get a good laugh at us for worrying about some of the things we've discussed here. 

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36 minutes ago, FireStone said:

There is no shortage of organizations that BSA members can look to for an example of how to deal with specific issues surrounding co-ed activity logistics.

Yes, and we don’t know that they haven’t.

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On 4/13/2018 at 11:50 AM, MikeS said:

Guess I don't really see what the big concern is with coed rules and the like....

My biggest concerns are the following:

1) What happens when "linked troops" are having a "joint" meeting, but there is no female Scouter present for the meeting?

2) What happens when "linked troops" are suppose to have a "joint" camp out, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

3) What happen when "linked troops" are suppose to do a week long activity, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

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11 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My biggest concerns are the following:

1) What happens when "linked troops" are having a "joint" meeting, but there is no female Scouter present for the meeting?

2) What happens when "linked troops" are suppose to have a "joint" camp out, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

3) What happen when "linked troops" are suppose to do a week long activity, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

@Eagle94-A1, what @T2Eagle said, or nothing.

A troop who decides that BSA policy does their kids more harm than good will temporarily violate BSA policy. National can't enforce this any better than it can enforce patrol method and youth leadership.

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12 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My biggest concerns are the following:

1) What happens when "linked troops" are having a "joint" meeting, but there is no female Scouter present for the meeting?

2) What happens when "linked troops" are suppose to have a "joint" camp out, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

3) What happen when "linked troops" are suppose to do a week long activity, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

Let's be honest. That is all CYA for National. There will be some tut tutting from Council and District folks and some "did you know" at training sessions but for those Troops that want a de facto co-ed Troop their will be little blow back or correction until AFTER something bad happens. The rules make a pretty good buffer for National if local units ignore the rules and something bad happens. Then we ALL will get some required additional training. I suspect many units will just make a "mom has to come along on campouts" rule.

I think the only problem will be when there really is not any "linked" troop, even a sham, and it affects some young lass going for advancement--particularly Eagle. If some stops her advancement they will appeal it and since we do not punish the Scout of the sins of the adults they will find a way to make it happen. So for those girls who cannot find the minimum number of 4 for a Linked Troop but can find one who will let them join anyway.

Seems like a low level risk for the Scout advancement wise, a mid level risk for the Scout safety wise, and a high level risk for the unit Liability wise.

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14 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My biggest concerns are the following:

1) What happens when "linked troops" are having a "joint" meeting, but there is no female Scouter present for the meeting?

2) What happens when "linked troops" are suppose to have a "joint" camp out, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

3) What happen when "linked troops" are suppose to do a week long activity, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

I think @qwazse and @TampaTurtle are spot on. Those units will do what they want, and with tour permits being a thing of the past, they will get away with it unless there is a crisis of some sort.

Look at all the people applauding BSA4G who say their pack has had girls take part in every activity, meeting and outing for years. District and council professionals have to have known about all that, and either said nothing or told them they cant do that (wink wink)

 

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44 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

I

Look at all the people applauding BSA4G who say their pack has had girls take part in every activity, meeting and outing for years. District and council professionals have to have known about all that, and either said nothing or told them they cant do that (wink wink)

 

Our council encouraged sibling participation in our activities for years.  We were told to include sisters as well, the only thing they can’t do is attend summer camp  and obtain official ranks.  When I took over as CC this was communicated to me by my DE and CM... it went back many many years.  We limited participation in some cases (PWD and overnights) but definitely allowed  it in others (den meetings, hikes, etc).

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2 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I think the only problem will be when there really is not any "linked" troop, even a sham, and it affects some young lass going for advancement--particularly Eagle.

That will be the next battleground surely.  A young lady wants to join a troop but there is no "linked" troop at the CO she wants to join...so what to do.  There may be one nearby, but she wants to to join this organization because it meets her meeting needs, better outdoor, etc etc.

Cue the news trucks to be sitting in front of a meeting, cue the hand wringing as females are not being given the same opportunities, cue the faux outrage at the intolerant leaders who do not want to start a linked troop thereby denying the young lady equal access

It will literally be a 3 ring circus right there is the CO's parking lot

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2 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I think the only problem will be when there really is not any "linked" troop, even a sham, and it affects some young lass going for advancement--particularly Eagle. If some stops her advancement they will appeal it and since we do not punish the Scout of the sins of the adults they will find a way to make it happen. So for those girls who cannot find the minimum number of 4 for a Linked Troop but can find one who will let them join anyway.

Lone Scouting?  Not optimal, but better than nothing, at least at the beginning.

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15 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Lone Scouting?  Not optimal, but better than nothing, at least at the beginning.

I think they will hold back on the Lone Scouting at the beginning....

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25 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Lone Scouting?  Not optimal, but better than nothing, at least at the beginning.

 

8 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I think they will hold back on the Lone Scouting at the beginning....

That was asked at our program training conference. Evidently one would need to be in a council that supports a Lone Scout program. Ours does not.

We did not go on to ask if that was a strategy in other councils who do support Lone Scouts, but I don't that it was a considered to be a practical option for National.

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