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Jameson76

Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

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36 minutes ago, qwazse said:

For reference and enjoyment,  this snapshot by WOSM may serve:

https://issuu.com/worldscouting/docs/wsbero-membership_report_2013

As an engineer, this is data I can dig into and appreciate. I would like to see what the graphs look like minus the Indonesia influence. Why can't BSA National treat us like grown-ups and share such statistical motivations, rather than concoct manipulative surveys as a pretext for a predetermined outcome?

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9 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

While it may be great it is also required for any outings, and for good reasons.  Note that Cubs and Scouts are two separate programs.  What is great for Cubs and 6 - 10 years olds does not translate to working with 11 - 17 years olds

That's why Family Scouting isn't being applied to the troop level. I think the BSA is handling this part of things well, limiting Family Scouting to age 10 and under. 

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48 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Absent the gender issue, what new types of male boy scouts do you think BSA is trying to get?

BSA has given up trying to attract new types of male Boy Scouts. They view girls as the future of Scouting and are modifying the program to accommodate that future vision.

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1 minute ago, gblotter said:

As an engineer, this is data I can dig into and appreciate. I would like to see what the graphs look like minus the Indonesia influence. Why can't BSA National treat us like grown-ups and share such statistical motivations, rather than concoct manipulative surveys as a pretext for a predetermined outcome?

It's difficult because the data can change depending on the time of year it is taken. National has not found a consistent method for acquiring data that has enough precision to see a trend. And they also are their own worst enemy. National pushes families of Webelos IIs to join a troop. But they won't know for at least a year if the scout was active. A lot of Webelos are pushed to join a troop only to never show up. So, National can't really track how many Webelos actually continue into scouting. I had to personally call the families to find that kind of data. I know that I have a better feel for program problems than National. The Tiger program is a membership killer for many reasons, but National has only shown their reliance of the program. I have the data, I'm not sure what they have.

Barry

 

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17 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

That's why Family Scouting isn't being applied to the troop level. I think the BSA is handling this part of things well, limiting Family Scouting to age 10 and under.

Where do you read this interpretation of Family Scouting as applying only to Cub Scouts (age 10 and under)? I'm not disputing you - I sincerely want to know. From what I have been able to tell, BSA has applied the term Family Scouting with a very broad brush to justify pretty much whatever change they want to make at whatever age level. By attaching the label "Family", BSA hopes to defuse resistance - because who can disagree with and go against the needs of the "Family", after all?

Edited by gblotter
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9 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

That's why Family Scouting isn't being applied to the troop level. I think the BSA is handling this part of things well, limiting Family Scouting to age 10 and under. 

What are you calling "Family Scouting"? because the push to bring girls into the BSA is what BSA is calling "Family Scouting", and it is most certainly being applied at the troop level.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I would slightly differ in that view.  BSA National and pretty much every interview CSE has had emphasized and at times over emphasized family.  He talks about families doing things together, that families want programs they can do together, and that scouting can be the program they can do together.  The surveys tell them family is key and they want to do things.  As a family.

One can infer that if the new families that come into Cubs with the family transition to Scouts, the expectation is the family will come along.  Those of us that are dinosaur troops, all male leaders on outings,  using patrol methods, scouts off by themselves, referring scouts to their SPL for questions, will be (I assume) be expected to welcome the families.  Even if we are all male and the Scouts potentially crossing over are male, this family focus will be a challenge.

 

Exactly. It is already happening...perhaps National is just recognizing the trend and embracing it. Maybe the "Helicopters have just landed" and I have been out maneuvered! :)

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1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

But that is CUB Scout, bot BOY Scouts. (caps for emphasis).  Most 11-18 year old males want to get away from their parents and younger siblings. They want to do things on their own. 

 

Correct.  I understand.  And I suspect that when national talks about Family Camping, they are referring to CUB Scouts, because that's where the program is currently launching.

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26 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Exactly. It is already happening...perhaps National is just recognizing the trend and embracing it. Maybe the "Helicopters have just landed" and I have been out maneuvered! :)

Yes, it is already happening. My sons and many of their friends are not happy with the parents and siblings starting to camp with the troop now.

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Just now, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes, it is already happening. My sons and many of their friends are not happy with the parents and siblings starting to camp with the troop now.

Yup. People just do it. It used to be assumed you would not show up without special permission.

The words "ruined the camp-outs" have been bandied about. I will say some of the scouters seem to enjoy chatting up the more comely younger mom all weekend and let the boys do whatever...

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Not the "Family Scouting" argument again. :rolleyes: I thought we resolved that BSA had not yet defined what it meant by Family Scouting. Or as some like to say "we agree to disagree". :dry:

The official position, such that it is, is here. It is clear what they mean as it applies to Cubs. It is unclear what this means for Boy Scouts and Venturing.

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4 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Correct.  I understand.  And I suspect that when national talks about Family Camping, they are referring to CUB Scouts, because that's where the program is currently launching.

They have completely muddied the message and when a few scouters from the Troop contacted folks at the Council we got mixed messages about "Family Changes" to the Boy Scouting program. They ranged from a "a more open family emphasis" to "nothing will change". Anyone else.

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1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

The  BSA was so overwhelmed with un-experienced adult leaders that they had to rethink how to train them. And I think most of us who were leading Troop programs back then would say that Patrol Method has suffered greatly. Adults today don't get patrol method because training doesn't teach it well and there aren't enough experienced leaders to encourage it at Council or district level. Bringing in girls will increase the number of un-experienced unit adult leaders. If there was any hope that the program 10 years from now resembled today's program, calling it a family program killed it. Calling it a family program will add more confusion between leadership and parents. It will eventually sort itself out if scouting survives, but it won't be the same  program. 

Barry

While I agree that inexperienced Scout leaders are a potentially large problem, there is not a lot of difference between an inexperienced male and female Scouter.  In fact, we could argue whether an inexperienced male or female Scouter would pay closer attention to the training. 

 

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