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Jameson76

Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

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@Pselb don't jump the gun, there may still be all-boy camp opportunities.  We need to wait and see how this shakes out, and there are many, many camps -- they might take different approaches.  I think there will be all-boy options available, and they'll likely be very popular. 

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34 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

(4) Some units who try to stay "Boy Only" will face a PR disaster when some girl gets turned away. Only if a religious based National C.O. backs them up will this be tenable.

To be clear, as of 2/13/2018 and at 10:04 EST, as we may understand the basic intent of the decision to allow Girls into the Cubs and Scouts; Cub units do have the option to remain single gender.  Also as faintly outlined there will be Girl Troops, so current Male only Boy Scout Troops will remain as such, so not really an option for Girls to join a current troop.

That is of course subject to change based on a potential future survey given to people not involved in scouting at this time at the whim of BSA National (results will not actually be presented to the general public only the feedback that everybody will join if there are fully coed units)

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23 minutes ago, gblotter said:

But that’s just it ... BSA *does* want to appeal to these new types of Scouts and these new types of Scouters.

Do they? What proof of that is there? What is specifically different about those scouts? Absent the gender issue, what new types of male boy scouts do you think BSA is trying to get?

Of the actual program changes made in the last few years, I think all of them have been to strengthen the traditional aspects of scouting, not to weaken them.

15 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Based on their history of lying and deception, frankly. I have very little faith in the competence of BSA National leadership.

National BSA doesn't control your local camp experience. No one obligates you to even use your local camp if they fail to live up to your ideals. Pick a different one if you don't like it - or ask them to better represent what scouting should be.

 

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I will not jump the gun, but my son might. :) 

If there is an all-male option on the table it will be taken into consideration.  If not, the choice will be made for him.  As parents, we offered up the Cub Scout program to him because WE thought the idea of a boys' group would be a good thing for him.  At least it got him away from his two sisters for a while.  He's enjoyed it and continues to want to go back for each meeting and some of the other activities.  As the program changes and he matures, that might change.  I have no crystal ball at this point.  As parents, we will support him in whatever he decides. 

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10 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Then along will come the real long term plan, fully coed at all units, the reason...we have listened to "the families" and this will meet their needs.

Funny thing is, The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

Nothing about families here.

In Cub Scouts, family camping is great.  It's a lot of fun for the younger kids.   Our council offers scout only camps and family weekend camps, and it's nice to have that variety. 

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For reference and enjoyment,  this snapshot by WOSM may serve:

https://issuu.com/worldscouting/docs/wsbero-membership_report_2013

What's relevant to us, is that Scouts UK had not recovered its market penetration, but compared to 2007, it had "turned the corner" and was gaining market share. It is reasonable to expect that it has continued that trend. However, it probably has a few years to gain the share of boys.

On the other hand, BSA's program(s) has lost market share at an alarming rate over the same period. Anyone worried about losing boys nationwide, that ship has sailed. Anyone thinking including girls is a panacea should reconsider their position.

I'm in this for smiles. Some girls want this program? Let them. Some boys want to keep to themselves? Make it work for them ... even if your troop is full-on co-ed. These things are best managed on a local level, and the sooner BSA gives scouters the latitude to do that the better.

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1 hour ago, ianwilkins said:

If I understood what you're saying, yes, it would be food for thought. Something lost in translation I think, sorry for my lack of understanding. I think what 'Skip is saying is that when he does get drama queens, of either gender, turning up, they either change/act differently, as his troop is not the place for drama, or they leave, for the same reasons. The rest of the kids just carry on in scouting. Why kids leave in the UK is for all sorts of reasons, not sure many of them are gender related. I have no evidence either way though.

Yes, boys and girls are different, but you know what? Boys and boys are different too. So you treat them all the same, differently, depending on the sort of kid they are. 

 

Thanks Ian, that's exactly what I was trying to say!

The handful we have had turn up who cause a drama quickly find that the rest of the troop don't want to be involved and it is the drama queens that leave shortly after. It's simply not an environment where they find that it is tolerated, in particular by their own peers.

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22 minutes ago, qwazse said:

For reference and enjoyment,  this snapshot by WOSM may serve:

https://issuu.com/worldscouting/docs/wsbero-membership_report_2013

What's relevant to us, is that Scouts UK had not recovered its market penetration, but compared to 2007, it had "turned the corner" and was gaining market share. It is reasonable to expect that it has continued that trend. However, it probably has a few years to gain the share of boys.

On the other hand, BSA's program(s) has lost market share at an alarming rate over the same period. Anyone worried about losing boys nationwide, that ship has sailed. Anyone thinking including girls is a panacea should reconsider their position.

I'm in this for smiles. Some girls want this program? Let them. Some boys want to keep to themselves? Make it work for them ... even if your troop is full-on co-ed. These things are best managed on a local level, and the sooner BSA gives scouters the latitude to do that the better.

EXCELLENT sexy data...highly recommended viewing.

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31 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Turning girls away is a concern, and I think that districts should prepare to support troops and packs who will be faced with having interested girls, but no actual girls program yet. 

What about troops who want to remain all male, even if girls are interested?  From what has been stated officially, girls and boys programs will be separate.  If that changes to where troops can be coed, should councils support troops who want to remain male only?

I ask because of the culture of my son's troop.  SM and ASMs were all male.  No females allowed on camping trips.  And while some say this is sexist, we (my son, my wife, and I) found it to work best.  In his previous troop where females could be leaders and attend outings, we had the issue of helicopter parents and no patrol method.  When moms want to make sure that deodorant has been applied, underwear has been changed, and everyone had plenty to eat, it is a totally different environment.   

I feel that if troops end up coed, it will kill the patrol method.  Once you have both boys and girls in a unit, the kids and the adults can no longer camp separately...  our troop kept at least 100 yards between the boys and adults when feasible.  Someone will have to stay up for tent watch.  Many folks will point to Venturing and how they operate as coed, but Venturing does not use the patrol method.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But I can tell you many things I use to do as a Scout are not allowed anymore, and it has been since women were allowed to be SMs and ASMs, i.e. pioneering projects over 6 feet, smudge pots, etc.

I am not a fan of female Scoutmasters, but I don't think we can blame them for such changes. Rather, blame the BSA lawyers for no pioneering projects over 6 feet, and the fact that you must be 16+ years old to operate a lawn mower. That is not because of female influence (unless those females happen to be BSA lawyers).

Edited by gblotter
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32 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

In Cub Scouts, family camping is great.  It's a lot of fun for the younger kids.   Our council offers scout only camps and family weekend camps, and it's nice to have that variety. 

While it may be great it is also required for any outings, and for good reasons.  Note that Cubs and Scouts are two separate programs.  What is great for Cubs and 6 - 10 years olds does not translate to working with 11 - 17 years olds

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1 minute ago, cyphertext said:

What about troops who want to remain all male, even if girls are interested?  From what has been stated officially, girls and boys programs will be separate.  If that changes to where troops can be coed, should councils support troops who want to remain male only?

I ask because of the culture of my son's troop.  SM and ASMs were all male.  No females allowed on camping trips.  And while some say this is sexist, we (my son, my wife, and I) found it to work best.  In his previous troop where females could be leaders and attend outings, we had the issue of helicopter parents and no patrol method.  When moms want to make sure that deodorant has been applied, underwear has been changed, and everyone had plenty to eat, it is a totally different environment.   

I feel that if troops end up coed, it will kill the patrol method.  Once you have both boys and girls in a unit, the kids and the adults can no longer camp separately...  our troop kept at least 100 yards between the boys and adults when feasible.  Someone will have to stay up for tent watch.  Many folks will point to Venturing and how they operate as coed, but Venturing does not use the patrol method.

Are you kidding? I'm keeping the BSA4G patrol 200 yards distant uphill!

But, seriously, your troop shouldn't be forced to change its culture, and I think it's on your CO to defend that. However, as with other new-troop start-ups some of your best boys should be called upon to help train the neighborhood's BSA4G troop -- should the need arise. I find that a little sharing of ideals is the best way to preserve the traditions of the senior unit.

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35 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

National BSA doesn't control your local camp experience. No one obligates you to even use your local camp if they fail to live up to your ideals. Pick a different one if you don't like it - or ask them to better represent what scouting should be.

 

I have been associated with three different councils as an adult. I cannot see any of them not following National’s direction. So yes, local camp experience will absolutely be driven by National’s “guidance,” and “suggestion.”

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