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Jameson76

Concerns with coed rules, leadership, liability

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(Moderator hat on)

The discussion in this thread has gotten a little too personal (and not in a good way.)  Let's please ALL take a "step back" (not a "step down") and remember to direct your remarks at the issue and the posts of others, and not the others themselves.

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11 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

The War on Boys stuff is concerning.  I have three sons and am concerned about some of those issues.  On the other hand, I think that girls will love the BSA program, and that girl troops do not necessarily take away from boy troops, and in the end, everyone will eventually live and work in society together.   I don't see the BSA as getting run over by feminism by this move to allow girls to have dens and patrols or packs and troops.  It is a time of major change, and I don't know how it will play out.  I'm curious to see how it goes. 

If we end up with girl only troops, well that will be fantastic and I do not see that hurting boy troops at all, I can agree with you on that.   I think BSA will do fine if they stick to that plan. 

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16 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

girl troops do not necessarily take away from boy troops

True - until that boy troop goes to a BSA summer camp, or a Merit Badge Midway, or a Camporee, or any other Scouting function outside his specific troop.

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1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Do you support females in Scouting, and do you support female Scout leaders? 

In the end it doesn't matter all that much, because the BSA does.  Just try not to contradict them too much in your interactions with the youth, especially because the youth members may have their own viewpoints that differ 

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Okay,  I'm a history teacher and let's try this on to see if it fits.  At one point sports was an all-male activity.  The first Olympics didn't have any females.  So over the past "few" years, that has changed.  And it did so incrementally.  I suppose there was some hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth when women first began to compete in a "few" more genteel competitions.  Then some crept in even before the BC/AD timeline.  Over time more and more were added on an ever increasing pace until we reach today.   But then along with women's sports, women's involvement in technology, industry and a ton of other advancements took off in the past 300 years.

So Scouts starts out all-boy at a snail's pace, then we break the ice with Den MOTHERS in Cubs, then high school aged gals in the co-ed program, sprinkle in the female Boy scout leaders, time marches on.  Whether it be sports, education, business, or the professional world, it's all the same "slippery slope."   It hasn't been that long in our own history women have gone from land-owning to voting, etc.  The same holds true for cultural and social "advancements". 

So when viewing the grand scheme of things, why does this whole situation of girls in scouting come along as any big surprise?  People may not like it, but they have never been able to stop it's progression through time.

Kicking and screaming, though it be, the one redeeming factor in this whole issue is: human kind has been able to adapt to the changes and eventually accepted them.  We in our own little timeline of existence only see a very small fraction of the change, the last few seconds of an age-old timeline and for some reason seemed so surprised that it is happening as if it were a brand new event in the course of human history.   Or even in this case scouting history.  A quick cursory look at scouting, I think Mrs. Powell had already started the ball rolling right from the beginning with a "parallel" program of Girl Guides. 

This internet research is a lot easier than doing it with old encyclopedias and dusty libraries.... :)

 

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7 minutes ago, SSF said:
2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Do you support females in Scouting, and do you support female Scout leaders? 

In the end it doesn't matter all that much, because the BSA does.  Just try not to contradict them too much in your interactions with the youth, especially because the youth members may have their own viewpoints that differ 

Sounds like censorship and thought policing; i.e. the only views and opinions that are accepted are those of the ruling party, the all powerful BSA in this case

Feel free to downvote me

Edited by SSF
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2 minutes ago, SSF said:

Sounds like censorship and thougt policing; i.e. the only views and opinions that are accepted are those of the ruling party, the all powerful BSA in this case

Feel free to downvote me

But that's the way it has been for every other step in human history.  The strong and powerful makes up the rules as they go along.  Name one point in time that that wasn't the case.  So why would BSA be any different than the rest of the world?

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20 minutes ago, SSF said:

Sounds like censorship and thought policing; i.e. the only views and opinions that are accepted are those of the ruling party, the all powerful BSA in this case

Feel free to downvote me

You're free to your thoughts, but realize you're not in charge of the organization.  Also, if the program is youth focused, then the adults should try to avoid BSA (or any other) politics and focus on the program when working with the scouts. That's my point -- adult opinions are not important -- youth decisions on where to camp, and how to run their patrols are important.  Make sense?  

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54 minutes ago, gblotter said:

True - until that boy troop goes to a BSA summer camp, or a Merit Badge Midway, or a Camporee, or any other Scouting function outside his specific troop.

Yep, boys and girls might go to those same things.  I am not sure how terrible that is.   Is it terrible?  

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Just now, WisconsinMomma said:

Yep, boys and girls might go to those same things.  I am not sure how terrible that is.   Is it terrible?  

For a co-ed merit badge class - probably not so terrible.

For a co-ed week at summer camp - that would change the entire experience (and not in a good way). If BSA adopted your earlier suggestion to have separate designated weeks for girl troops and boy troops - that provides a workable summer camp solution in my opinion.

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I think there are multiple work arounds.   Maybe a boy troop doesn't want to go to a camp with girls so they choose to do a summer camp at a state park or do another kind of adventurous trip.  Maybe they want to work on merit badges as individuals or small groups instead of at  a clinic or college.  There's a lot of flexibility in scouting. 

ETA:  Or maybe the girls want to get away from the boys and will reserve a public campground or do merit badges with a friend, too! ;) 

Edited by WisconsinMomma

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Maybe as a simple solution, if the boys and girls are going to have separate programs in separate groups, why would it not follow that summer camps run separate weeks?  Then you don't have to worry about not having enough toilets. 

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Just now, WisconsinMomma said:

Maybe a boy troop doesn't want to go to a camp with girls so they choose to do a summer camp at a state park or do another kind of adventurous trip.

And thus the boys suffer (i.e. they withdraw from summer camp, opt-out) because BSA wants to focus on the needs of girls.  See what I'm saying?

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Only if we assume that an organized scout camp is superior to the boys planning their own fun.  I am not sure that it is.  And I think the BSA will be sensitive to helping boy only troops have access to resources.  But that's just a guess.  I don't know how it's all going to play out.   One of the troops near me is opting out of summer camp this year to work on hiking and they chose a beautiful state park to visit instead.  I bet they'll have a wonderful time. 

Edited by WisconsinMomma

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Or maybe a couple of camps work together to alternate so the kids get more variety of camps to pick from depending on which week they can go. Or the camps alternate boy weeks with girl weeks.  I for one don't go back to the same state parks and camp in the same campsite every summer on the same week, (but alas, it's the same family that tags along.)  It never occurred to me to even do that.  There's got to be alternatives that deviate a bit from the same old story that might be interesting for the kids. 

A teacher that teaches one grade and does the same field trip every year for 15 years is not the same experience that a student would have if he were to go on the same field trip from first grade through high school even if it was the Smithsonian.

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