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I think CP's point, and please correct me if I am in error, was that the ISP did not force a quality outdoor program to become inferior and that the rank requirements in some aspects were significantly more difficult that present. Also the skill award concept was a positive step. I also recall there was a minimum time requirement at each rank; eg. 2 months as a tenderfoot (I could have the time wrong).

The ISP had issues, the present system has issues. In the end it is up to the local unit to provide a robust program. I do not think the ISP prohibited that, and in some ways might have helped with the requirements, skill awards, growth conference, etc... 

It may have been possible for a scout to advance bypassing the traditional outdoor skills, but in my council I saw a more robust outdoor program then, compared to now.  At present, in many troops the outdoor skills are done at the bare minimum; car camping only, propane stoves as primary (fires,  and woods tools are one and done requirements). Advancement seems to have gone the way of cub scouts where that is the goal of each activity to "get things signed off".

While I agree that many appear to have voted with their feet at many junctions in Scouting history, without a substantial data set of exit interviews we cannot know for certain the primary reason. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Also the skill award concept was a positive step.

I speak for no one but myself here.

I absolutely hated the entire Skill Award concept. That was my primary motivation for rushing to Eagle under the old requirements - so I wouldn’t be stuck earning those despised Skill Awards. I actually was given a couple of Skill Awards somewhere along the way just because they were supposed to be part of immediate recognition. I threw them away because they meant nothing to me. They are not even part of my collection of Scouting memorabilia.

Edited by gblotter

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I did not live through the ISP of the 1970s, but I heard about it from my brothers and cousin. Cousin was one of those who got Eagle right before the requirements change. Grant you he was pushed to get Eagle by my uncle, but I bet the requirement changes also played a part. And he didn't stay around once he got Eagle. Brothers both got out of Scouting after they moved to the burbs. None of the new troops sprouting up in the area camped a lot, and they were bored. 

I grew up with Skill Awards, and liked them. It allowed Scouts to focus and master one specific set of skill at a time to get advancement. I also like the tenure requirements for T-2-1 ranks, as well as having Scouts on BORs. I really hate August 1, 1989 when they did away with Skill Awards, tenure requirements, Scouts on BORs (although that took several years fro some units to get the word), and requirements for the World Crest.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

In the end it is up to the local unit to provide a robust program.

Local units are the face of Scouting and the boots on the ground to make any program work. But local units can do only so much to rescue National from their own bumbling mistakes (then and now).

The Improved Scouting Program drove away membership by the millions. It was a train wreck of a program, and the incompetent CSE deservedly lost his job because of it. Good riddance to Skill Awards and red berets.

Edited by gblotter

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4 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Good riddance to skill awards and red berets.

Don't be hating on the red beret

image.jpeg.6b327c065a36c9a04811666f6a43bc1c.jpeg

 

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11 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Don't be hating on the red beret

I have no problem with vintage headwear. Our troop has adopted the garrison hat. It took no arm-twisting from me - the boys proudly wear it because it sets them apart. Everyone at camp recognizes immediately who we are.

 

VintageHats.jpg

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24 minutes ago, gblotter said:

 

The black necker is pretty fancy too! Is that their patrol patch on their hat?

I really liked the distinct maroon beret (airborne) I wore in the military and was a little saddened when the Army put everyone in a black beret - at the cost of the Ranger's distinct headgear (they now wear brown - which would have made more sense for the general Army IMO).

What is the rule or guideline on shiny or subdued necker slide? Does above or below the collar matter?

 

I might have to drag out my old beret and see if it is something my PL son thinks his patrol might like to adopt - or something like it.

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Just now, Hawkwin said:

The black necker is pretty fancy too! Is that their patrol patch on their hat?

The black neckerchief is standard issue from the BSA Scout shop. The hat emblem is the regular BSA fleur-de-lys used in the 50-60s.

 

2 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

What is the rule or guideline on shiny or subdued necker slide?

I'm sure others here on Scouter.com are better experts than I about uniform etiquette. But I believe neckerchief slides are highly customizable and can be almost anything you like - even carve your own.

 

4 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Does above or below the collar matter?

That sounds like a Democrat vs Republican debate to me - not going there - haha.  My son and I regularly argue over that point, actually. I'm sure others here will have something more definitive to say. And I have no doubt it has already been hotly debated in a previous thread - lol.

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50 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

 

What is the rule or guideline on shiny or subdued necker slide? Does above or below the collar matter?

 

 

No rules on slides - a Scout can use whatever they want as a slide as long as it is acceptable to their unit.

The neckerchief should be worn under the collar.  I know that folks like to debate that point but I can point to official BSA documents to back-up my statement.  Look at the BSA issued uniform inspection sheets.  In every case, the example model of proper uniform wear shows the neckerchief being worn under the collar.

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26 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

The neckerchief should be worn under the collar.  I know that folks like to debate that point but I can point to official BSA documents to back-up my statement.  Look at the BSA issued uniform inspection sheets.  In every case, the example model of proper uniform wear shows the neckerchief being worn under the collar.

I didn't know that.  I thought under-the-collar was just a personal style preference on my part.  :D   I think most of the rest of my troop is in violation though.  (Actually up until a few years ago it was never an issue for me.  For most of my youth as a Boy Scout, my shirt had no collar, and when I became an adult leader (with a collared shirt) I always opted for a bolo tie, since I absolutely hate wearing a neckerchief.  However, a few years ago my troop adopted a new custom neckerchief designed by the boys, and I got one and started wearing it in the interests of, um, uniformity.  So to speak.  It's an acceptable color and a good design, so I hate it a little less than usual.)

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I have strong opinions on this but since my unit years ago voted for no neckers I feel I must keep them to myself...

(OK OK over the collar looks better)

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BSA on the results of the "Improved Scouiting Program" of 1972:

"While well-intended, the plan flopped,...."

"Hillcourt’s biggest impact came after he retired. In 1972, the BSA revised the Boy Scout program, de-emphasizing outdoor skills in a bid to become more relevant to America’s urban population. While well-intended, the plan flopped, and Hillcourt stepped in. He saw the need for a new Scout handbook, one that would capture the romance and excitement of Scouting, so he offered to write it for free. It was an offer the BSA couldn’t — and didn’t — refuse.

That handbook  the ninth edition appeared in 1979 and went on to sell 4.4 million copies. In its opening pages, 78-year-old Hillcourt described the same sense of adventure he had first experienced so many decades ago: hiking and camping with friends, following the footsteps of the pioneers, staring into the glowing embers of a campfire and dreaming of the future."

Scouting, January, 2018. (available on line at https://scoutingmagazine.org/2017/12/scoutmaster-to-the-world/)

 

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The Boy Scout Handbook says that the neckerchief may be worn "over or under the collar, depending on your troop's custom."  Yes, all the pictures on the inspection sheets show under the collar, but the troop could decide to wear them over the collar.  The main thing is that all of the Scouts in the troop should be wearing it the same way.

There was also a Bryan on Scouting article that mentions it (some troop wear over / some troops wear under collar):

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/02/03/scout-neckerchiefs-yea-or-nay/

 

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10 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

BSA on the results of the "Improved Scouting Program" of 1972:

"While well-intended, the plan flopped,...."

"Hillcourt’s biggest impact came after he retired. In 1972, the BSA revised the Boy Scout program, de-emphasizing outdoor skills in a bid to become more relevant to America’s urban population. While well-intended, the plan flopped, and Hillcourt stepped in. He saw the need for a new Scout handbook, one that would capture the romance and excitement of Scouting, so he offered to write it for free. It was an offer the BSA couldn’t — and didn’t — refuse.

That handbook  the ninth edition appeared in 1979 and went on to sell 4.4 million copies. In its opening pages, 78-year-old Hillcourt described the same sense of adventure he had first experienced so many decades ago: hiking and camping with friends, following the footsteps of the pioneers, staring into the glowing embers of a campfire and dreaming of the future."

Scouting, January, 2018. (available on line at https://scoutingmagazine.org/2017/12/scoutmaster-to-the-world/)

 

Yep - I read that article, too, and picked out the same sentences.

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