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Oldscout448

OA to end AoL ceremonies?

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Quite a lot of the scouts have bought their own materials, made their own regalia without any help whatsoever from the Lodge,   If they decide to serve the cubs by driving their car to an AoL and doing a ceremony that the pack has requested,without any reference to the Order, I do not see how a Lodge ,or even National ,has any right legal or moral to tell them no.

Oldscout

 

Edited by Oldscout448

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2 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Quite a lot of the scouts have bought their own materials, made their own regalia without any help whatsoever from the Lodge,   If they decide to serve the cubs by driving their car to an AoL and doing a ceremony that the pack has requested,without any reference to the Order, I do not see how a Lodge ,or even National ,has any right legal or moral to tell them no.

Oldscout

 

So you're going to use the, "if a patrol wants to go play laser tag as a bunch of friends in street clothes, then it isn't Scouts going against the G2SS" defense even when the patrol planned it at a meeting?  OA ceremonialists need to do the honorable thing and follow the national rules rather than go rogue.

Edited by LeCastor
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29 minutes ago, SR540Beaver said:

So you're going to use the, "if a patrol wants to go play laser tag as a bunch of friends in street clothes, then it isn't Scouts going against the G2SS" defense even when the patrol planned it at a meeting?  OA ceremonialists need to do the honorable thing and follow the national rules rather than go rogue.

I have to agree with @SR540Beaver here.  my son has done these ceremonies for the past two years, and is disappointed in the change.  He's also disappointed in the poor scripts that have been provided as well.  However, he respects that they have been told what they have been told, and his choice is either comply or just don't participate in them at all.  His lodge seems intent on offering the new format, but I doubt he'll volunteer for them.

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43 minutes ago, SR540Beaver said:

Quite a lot of the scouts have bought their own materials, made their own regalia without any help whatsoever from the Lodge,

I was a part of our chapter ceremonial and dance teams for 6 years, from 1968 - 1974.  During most of that time Arrow of Light was not around yet, but even once it was, I do not ever recall our chapter being asked to conduct an AOL crossover ceremony.  Back then, all of our regalia was personally owned.  However, that did not mean that we could go against National or Lodge policy with it's use.

 

2 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

 If they decide to serve the cubs by driving their car to an AoL and doing a ceremony that the pack has requested,without any reference to the Order, I do not see how a Lodge ,or even National ,has any right legal or moral to tell them no.

I agree with both @SR540Beaver and @HashTagScouts, that as members of the OA, who should be the best of the best, no chapter should say National has no right to tell me what to do, particularly at a Scouting event.

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1 hour ago, SR540Beaver said:

So you're going to use the, "if a patrol wants to go play laser tag as a bunch of friends in street clothes, then it isn't Scouts going against the G2SS" defense even when the patrol planned it at a meeting?  OA ceremonialists need to do the honorable thing and follow the national rules rather than go rogue.

Not to derail a thread, but isn't that sort of the reasoning (groups gone rogue) given as one of the reasons for the change to allow girls into the Cubs and Boy Scouts?  Also the move toward family scouting emphasis "so many were doing it anyway, may as well make it official".   That seems to be the way to effect change now, just go do it and likely rather than make waves it will be codified

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Mike,  you and I share much the same history, and I respect your opinions quite a bit.  Although my years on a ceremonies team were '74-'80.  I Absolutely agree that no chapter or lodge should flout National,  but as an individual who is not representing the Order in any way,  no sash, no patch, no mention of the Order at all,  please explain to me how National gets to tell me what I can wear.

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2 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

his choice is either comply or just don't participate in them

Nah.  He has at least three choices, comply, walk away, or resist.  Question is, do we really want to put boys in this position?  Comply is disheartening, resist is hard, walk away is easy.  And it gets easier after the first stroll.

 

35 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

no chapter or lodge should flout National

Nah.  Silly rules should be flouted at every available opportunity.  We can argue about the wisdom of this particular rule change but blind obedience is not what "A Scout is Obedient" means.

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1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

Mike,  you and I share much the same history, and I respect your opinions quite a bit.  Although my years on a ceremonies team were '74-'80.  I Absolutely agree that no chapter or lodge should flout National,  but as an individual who is not representing the Order in any way,  no sash, no patch, no mention of the Order at all,  please explain to me how National gets to tell me what I can wear.

Based on what I have seen in many of your posts, I am sure that your ceremonial teams are much like mine were, and your regalia is both accurate and representative of your area, and your ceremonies are done properly.  I think that one of the biggest reasons that some of these edicts have come down from National is the teams that are not as respectful of NA peoples.  One of the Scouting/OA related Facebook pages I am a member of is for Vigil members.  Multiple times a week I see photos posted of various ceremonial teams, some of which are very well done, but some do make me cringe.

I see the looks on the faces of Cubs when they see a ceremonial team in well done regalia, but I can understand why there are Native Americans who are offended by some of what, unfortunately, represents all of us.

Personally, I would like to be able to continue as we always have, but if we are told no more Cub ceremonies using regalia I will stick to that.  I will also  attempt to get my own chapter to adopt local regalia, rather than dressing like plains Indians in Florida.

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