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3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Those are good terms.  

I'm confused though.  I've not heard of a "familization" change for Boy Scouts.

My term. 

There's been an on-going debate here and elsewhere about the impact "family" will have on Scouting as we know it. BSA has made a concerted effort to push the family issue across all their publications, and as part of their narrative for going coed in Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. As you can see, even BSA has not really defined what all this means. The GTSS talks about "family camping" and it being allowed at all levels of Scouting...but what does it really mean? Can my 4 year-old go with me on troop outings? Can my wife and 10 unregistered 10 year old go?

I thought this thread was discussing the impact of the emphasis of BSA on "family" on how units will operate.

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41 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Thus mom, dad, Life Scout and 4 year old sister will be able to go on camp outs with Life Scout's troop.

 

I've never gotten the impression that this would be allowed. Is there anything you've seen in the materials and discussions released by the BSA that would suggest this would be happening? 

My impression (and granted we're all forced to make a lot of assumptions about this so far) is that the "family" element of the program ends at Cubs, it does not follow into the Troop. So there would be no need to worry about activities being reduced to appropriate levels for kids 10 and under. Nor would it allow for a 4-year-old to tag along on Troop trips with mom and dad. 

I'm curious if I'm alone in that assumption, though, or if anyone else has come to the same conclusion. 

Edited by EmberMike

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I read the guide to safe scouting that was posted. It says family camping is allowed. That might mean any family member could go camping at any time but there’s no further discussion of what it is. 

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5 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

I read the guide to safe scouting that was posted. It says family camping is allowed. That might mean any family member could go camping at any time but there’s no further discussion of what it is. 

But that's the same family camping that has been in the G2SS since before the discussion of "Family Scouting" even began, right? So what's changing? 

Family camping has always been an option for any unit. But at their own discression. That doesn't appear to be changing at the Troop and Venture level. A Troop can certainly organize a family camping trip if they want to, same as they always could. 

Am I missing something that says that Troops must now accomodate family camping on all trips? Where is this coming from? 

 

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17 hours ago, SSF said:

The Boy Scouts of America are becoming "family friendly" (a huge mistake) and the troop in question is being overrun by parents who don't value the patrol method.

What is the solution?

Training.

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4 hours ago, perdidochas said:

Training.

To that I'd add that your troop needs to have a defined program.  

Our troop is far from perfect.  But, one thing we have is a sense of what our program is and how we work as a troop.  The SM has a plan for what he's doing.  As CC, I have a plan for where we're taking the troop.  If some adults start showing up at committee meetings, troop meetings, or camping trips and starting problems, we'd all look at them and collectively say "what are you doing?".  I think the key to that is the core group of troop volunteers coming up with a shared vision for who you are as a troop and then going in that direction.  It may sound like I'm advocating adult led - I am not.  When I say "defined program", I mean things like - are you boy led, do you use patrols, what is the relationship of adults to scouts, etc.  The boys should be planning the troops operating activities and program.  What I'm suggesting is that higher level of who are you as a troop.

The other thing I'd advocate is for you and others to spend a lot of time explaining why you do things.  If a parent wants to clean his son's dishes, it's one thing to say "HEY, don't do that, we're a boy led troop".  It's another to have a conversation with that adult about how letting the scout do it himself is a step down the path of self reliance, confidence, and developing leadership skills.

 

 

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Sorry I've been out since since Friday. Work was crazy, and just back from the troop's lock in. 

I meant more and more family involvement.

 

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Our Troop has NEVER offered any family camping trips, nor are we planning to. I doubt that it will ever be an issue for the families of our Scouts. That being said, we are definitely planning to offer whatever program materializes for girls.

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On 1/19/2018 at 3:36 PM, EmberMike said:

I've never gotten the impression that this would be allowed. Is there anything you've seen in the materials and discussions released by the BSA that would suggest this would be happening? 

My impression (and granted we're all forced to make a lot of assumptions about this so far) is that the "family" element of the program ends at Cubs, it does not follow into the Troop. So there would be no need to worry about activities being reduced to appropriate levels for kids 10 and under. Nor would it allow for a 4-year-old to tag along on Troop trips with mom and dad. 

I'm curious if I'm alone in that assumption, though, or if anyone else has come to the same conclusion. 

Again, read the GTSS. It allows family camping at all levels and does not put any constraints around what that (family camping) means; other than the age matrix. But as some have suggested, if a unit calls an event "family camping" allegedly the BSA rules don't apply...and I can't find any place where that's confirmed either way.

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8 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

But as some have suggested, if a unit calls an event "family camping" allegedly the BSA rules don't apply...and I can't find any place where that's confirmed either way.

I would be surprised if you did find confirmation for that statement, because it isn’t true.  If the “unit” is involved in any way, BSA rules apply. The way some people (including some people in this forum) try to get around this is by saying that the activity was organized by a group of parents, acting as parents, and the unit has nothing to do with it, and it’s just a coincidence that some of the parents are also Scouters, and all or almost all of the participants are members of the unit or their relatives.  That way they think they can take Cub Scouts whitewater rafting or go shoot paintball guns or laser guns at each other, or whatever, and not worry about the Guide to Safe Scouting.

As you can probably already tell, I am not a fan of this kind of thing.  I once had the opportunity to participate in such an activity when my son was a Cub Scout, and I said No Thanks, on his behalf and mine.

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 10:29 PM, SSF said:

The Boy Scouts of America are becoming "family friendly" (a huge mistake) and the troop in question is being overrun by parents who don't value the patrol method.

What is the solution?

Well, in a solution, two or more things are dissolved into each other forming a homogeneous mixture. Once a solution is formed, the things cannot be easily separated again by settling or filtering. 

In contrast, a suspension has two or more things that are mixed together, but do not dissolve or form a solution. The things remain separate things, but jumbled together. Things in a suspension can be easily separated out by settling or filtering.

Hopefully, family scouting will be more of a suspension than a solution. So my answer to your question is that I hope there will be no solutions.

Edited by David CO
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19 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Again, read the GTSS. It allows family camping at all levels and does not put any constraints around what that (family camping) means; other than the age matrix. But as some have suggested, if a unit calls an event "family camping" allegedly the BSA rules don't apply...and I can't find any place where that's confirmed either way.

I've been circling back through this thread and I think I've picked up on what I've been missing here. 

So the main issue is family camping. Not a new thing, but something that there is now concern will become more of a challenge to units that traditionally didn't do much (or any) family camping if the latest push for family-friendly activities at the cub level trickles up to the troop level. And even though the new push for being more family-friendly at the cub level doesn't officially extendup to the troop level, family camping (not Family Scouting) can be used to circumvent this and make troops water down their activities. Possibly even force a unit to change their whole activities plan for the year and incorporate more family-friendly trips. 

Is that an accurate summarization of your views on this?

My initial response was that Family Scouting (the official program) is capped at age 10, and so parents attempting to use that to push for more "family" activities at the troop level could just be referred to the Family Scouting documentation that basically says the Family Scouting program is over when your kids cross over to the troop, so don't bother trying to bring that stuff around here. My paraphrasing, of course.

I still stand by that assessment. If some parents want to see a family camping trip added to the calendar, sure, let's do it. But if they want to shift the balance to more heavily favor family camping throughout the year, that (to me) goes against the intent of the program and the very deliberate age limit expressed in the documentation about Family Scouting.

Obviously that isn't going to end the discussion for every parent who wants more family camping trips. But in some cases it will, maybe in a lot of cases. In units where parents push harder, I hope the will and intent of the scouts, leaders, and committee will ensure that the unit continues to operate in a way that matches their goals for the program and also fits with what I thnk is the BSA model for troop-level activities. 

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12 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I would be surprised if you did find confirmation for that statement, because it isn’t true.  If the “unit” is involved in any way, BSA rules apply. The way some people (including some people in this forum) try to get around this is by saying that the activity was organized by a group of parents, acting as parents, and the unit has nothing to do with it, and it’s just a coincidence that some of the parents are also Scouters, and all or almost all of the participants are members of the unit or their relatives.  That way they think they can take Cub Scouts whitewater rafting or go shoot paintball guns or laser guns at each other, or whatever, and not worry about the Guide to Safe Scouting.

As you can probably already tell, I am not a fan of this kind of thing.  I once had the opportunity to participate in such an activity when my son was a Cub Scout, and I said No Thanks, on his behalf and mine.

Oh I agree. I don't think the documentation for ignoring BSA rules lies anywhere under the umbrella of family Scouting. In fact, I would argue that -- although not well stated -- that if family camping is used, the activities must follow the age guidelines, as well as all other BSA rules and policies adhered to. My point above is that the whole concept is not as tightly defined as some would like. I expect this is where those folks you mention try to find and use loopholes.

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1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

I've been circling back through this thread and I think I've picked up on what I've been missing here. 

So the main issue is family camping. Not a new thing, but something that there is now concern will become more of a challenge to units that traditionally didn't do much (or any) family camping if the latest push for family-friendly activities at the cub level trickles up to the troop level. And even though the new push for being more family-friendly at the cub level doesn't officially extendup to the troop level, family camping (not Family Scouting) can be used to circumvent this and make troops water down their activities. Possibly even force a unit to change their whole activities plan for the year and incorporate more family-friendly trips. 

Is that an accurate summarization of your views on this?

My initial response was that Family Scouting (the official program) is capped at age 10, and so parents attempting to use that to push for more "family" activities at the troop level could just be referred to the Family Scouting documentation that basically says the Family Scouting program is over when your kids cross over to the troop, so don't bother trying to bring that stuff around here. My paraphrasing, of course.

I still stand by that assessment. If some parents want to see a family camping trip added to the calendar, sure, let's do it. But if they want to shift the balance to more heavily favor family camping throughout the year, that (to me) goes against the intent of the program and the very deliberate age limit expressed in the documentation about Family Scouting.

Obviously that isn't going to end the discussion for every parent who wants more family camping trips. But in some cases it will, maybe in a lot of cases. In units where parents push harder, I hope the will and intent of the scouts, leaders, and committee will ensure that the unit continues to operate in a way that matches their goals for the program and also fits with what I thnk is the BSA model for troop-level activities. 

You now have captured what I have been trying to convey (in red).

But you are wrong in that the "Family Scouting" program is capped. Even now the idea of coed patrols is being discussed by national. We don't know yet if coed patrols or even single-sex troops will be the end result. But let's say that national allows all options (single-sex troops, separate gender patrols but coed troops, and coed patrols in coed troops), you don't think those wanting "Family Scouting" will use this program (and the idea of family camping) to crowbar open a single-sex troop? Or even a separate gender but coed troop to being fully coed? 

Just look at how many things BSA has caved in on in the last five years. Single-sex troops will be the targets of all those groups looking to take down the last bastion of this formerly boy-only program. And yes, I think they will use all the tools at their disposal to further water down the program to make it what THEY want.

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13 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

And yes, I think they will use all the tools at their disposal to further water down the program to make it what THEY want.

Completely agree. Parents pushing their own personal agenda to make the Troop tailor the program to suit their vision (NOT the troop vision) is a daily problem. 

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