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Stosh

Transfer Advancement from Other Youth Organizations

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1 minute ago, EmberMike said:

So all of the stuff a kid did from ages 11-15 should be easily repeatable at 16? How many kids in your unit do you think could do that?

Well, if they couldn't then they didn't learn them very well.

But, If they earned their ranks through First Class under the current SM, they could tie knots and do first aid.

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50 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

So all of the stuff a kid did from ages 11-15 should be easily repeatable at 16? How many kids in your unit do you think could do that?

A 16 year old Life Scout should know all of the First Class requirements, and be able to repeat them.  I think most of the Life Scouts in my unit could.  

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2 hours ago, EmberMike said:

So all of the stuff a kid did from ages 11-15 should be easily repeatable at 16? How many kids in your unit do you think could do that?

Depends on the unit.

In the 'High Speed, Low Drag"  and "One and Done" Advancements units. probably no one. Those units will high standards and expectations, all of them. sadly my unit is in the middle of these two. We are working on getting those expectation high.

Once upon a time,  a Scout was expected to "master the skills," and  "the badge represents what you can do, not what you have done." In the troop I grew up in, yes the older Scouts could do them as they were the ones teaching the skills to the younger Scouts. In fact, one of my Eagles as a 20 something Marine was stationed in Iraq. He was living in a tent, and when setting them up, the plastic adjuster on the guy line broke. His buddy freaked out, but he did a Taut Line  Hitch to fix the problem. His gunny saw what he did, and made him teach every single member of the platoon how to tie that know.

If a Scouter doesn't expect his older Scouts to know their basic skills, then the unit really needs to think how they select their volunteers IMHO.

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On 1/14/2018 at 10:36 PM, Stosh said:

So this whole issue begs the question:  If a GS/USA Gold Awardee were to join BSA4G, would see qualify for the eagle?

How do you verify they've shown scout spirit, which is living by the Oath and Law, two things non-existent in their programs. 

Or do we just get rid of that "ridiculous" and sentimental requirement because it should be rubber stamped anyway. 

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19 hours ago, EmberMike said:

So all of the stuff a kid did from ages 11-15 should be easily repeatable at 16? How many kids in your unit do you think could do that?

All of them in my unit. We continue to train them on the core Scouting skills so they don't forget them.

Can an 11th grader forget how to add and subtract even though he learned how in 2nd grade? Nope. So ALL Scouts are required to know and demonstrat their core Scouting skills (for rank) that they learned during their trail to Eagle.

Edited by Col. Flagg
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16 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

a Scouter doesn't expect his older Scouts to know their basic skills, then the unit really needs to think how they select their volunteers IMHO.

THIS a thousand times over.

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4 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

All of them in my unit. We continue to train them on the core Scouting skills so they don't forget them.

Can an 11th grader forget how to add and subtract even though he learned how in 2nd grade? Nope. So ALL Scouts are required to know and demonstrated their core Scouting skills (for rank) that they learned during their trail to Eagle.

Are you able to do this without retesting in SM Conferences or BOR? If so, what does that procedure look like? I think some troops that struggle with scouts retaining skills proficiency could learn from that.

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27 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

How do you verify they've shown scout spirit, which is living by the Oath and Law, two things non-existent in their programs. 

Or do we just get rid of that "ridiculous" and sentimental requirement because it should be rubber stamped anyway. 

That's not complicated. Ask the scout. If he/she cannot tell you how he/she lived by the Oath and Law before he/she knew it, suggest he/she come back in a couple of months now that he/she's recited it.

For example, to my knowledge, Duty to God doesn't depend on one's ability to pronounce shibboleth.

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5 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Are you able to do this without retesting in SM Conferences or BOR? If so, what does that procedure look like? I think some troops that struggle with scouts retaining skills proficiency could learn from that.

Yes. The PLC builds skills in to the program, beit meetings, projects or camp outs. Participation in an SMC is also considered being able to discuss the skills you have and demonstrate them. It's not pass/fail, it's participating in the SMC...and no one ever fails. If they are weak in a skill you know they will work on it to make sure they aren't anymore.

But to be brutally honest, we just use the skills all the time since we are outdoors a lot. Our tents are modern but still require taught-lines to set up. We don't use pop-up canopies (we use Philmont flies) so the guys still need to know knots to set those up too. We have first aid skills all the time, same with cooking, camping, hiking, orienteering (think: hidden pizzas in a park at night), etc. So these skills are built in to the program. Took a while to set up. Once done it was easy to keep going...just keep the adults away. ;)

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12 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Are you able to do this without retesting in SM Conferences or BOR? If so, what does that procedure look like? I think some troops that struggle with scouts retaining skills proficiency could learn from that.

A scout is trustworthy. Ask the scout, can you tie those knots, swim those yards, and navigate that terrain?

If the answer is "No sir," reply, "Come back when you can."

To add to Flag's comment: if you've seen a scout struggling in an area, tell him that you're postponing his advancement SMC until he regains proficiency.

Edited by qwazse
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9 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

Yes. The PLC builds skills in to the program, beit meetings, projects or camp outs. Participation in an SMC is also considered being able to discuss the skills you have and demonstrate them. It's not pass/fail, it's participating in the SMC...and no one ever fails. If they are weak in a skill you know they will work on it to make sure they aren't anymore.

But to be brutally honest, we just use the skills all the time since we are outdoors a lot. Our tents are modern but still require taught-lines to set up. We don't use pop-up canopies (we use Philmont flies) so the guys still need to know knots to set those up too. We have first aid skills all the time, same with cooking, camping, hiking, orienteering (think: hidden pizzas in a park at night), etc. So these skills are built in to the program. Took a while to set up. Once done it was easy to keep going...just keep the adults away. ;)

Yea our method is similar. Figured that's what your troop would be doing! ;)

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10 minutes ago, qwazse said:

That's not complicated. Ask the scout. If he/she cannot tell you how he/she lived by the Oath and Law before he/she knew it, suggest he/she come back in a couple of months now that he/she's recited it.

For example, to my knowledge, Duty to God doesn't depend on one's ability to pronounce shibboleth.

Fair, but Each requirement requires showing Scout Spirit over the course of time between ranks.   Do you just have the scout give an example and that covers Scout through Eagle?  

There's also Positions of Responsibility and their time allotment.  

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7 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

Fair, but Each requirement requires showing Scout Spirit over the course of time between ranks.   Do you just have the scout give an example and that covers Scout through Eagle?  

There's also Positions of Responsibility and their time allotment.  

Actually, the Scout Spirit doesn't have time specifications ... although one would think it's implicit. But, take 2nd class ... a scout describes how he followed 4 points of the scout law other than the ones he chose for tenderfoot. Suppose for one of those four, he gave an example of something he did before he earned tenderfoot. As written, he would still meet the requirement. By extension, a girl scout who shows multiple ways that she was following each point of the oath and law could meet the requirement.

But, as I mentioned earlier, BSA-specific requirements (esp. those camping nights, and PoR and tenure) have no reasonable way of being fulfilled in GS/USA. The only practical way is if a troop of girls decide to pick up a bunch of old Boy's Life articles and form their own green bar patrol. But, that group of girls would be in the realm of rogue troop (as far as both organizations are concerned)!

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56 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Actually, the Scout Spirit doesn't have time specifications ... although one would think it's implicit. But, take 2nd class ... a scout describes how he followed 4 points of the scout law other than the ones he chose for tenderfoot. Suppose for one of those four, he gave an example of something he did before he earned tenderfoot. As written, he would still meet the requirement. By extension, a girl scout who shows multiple ways that she was following each point of the oath and law could meet the requirement.

“Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law.”

I have always interpreted that to be something that must be shown, not tell someone about. The telling of how the Scout fulfilled 4 points of the Law was more for the Scout benefit, sort of a self awareness of how he was living the Oath and Law.

As far as demonstrating, to me a big part of that is how the Scout interacts with his Unit. Is he helpful, does he participate cheerfully, is trustworthy and friendly towards other, etc.

Perhaps I read it too literally, but that has been my understanding.

But each situation is unique.

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8 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

“Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law.”

I have always interpreted that to be something that must be shown, not tell someone about. The telling of how the Scout fulfilled 4 points of the Law was more for the Scout benefit, sort of a self awareness of how he was living the Oath and Law.

As far as demonstrating, to me a big part of that is how the Scout interacts with his Unit. Is he helpful, does he participate cheerfully, is trustworthy and friendly towards other, etc.

Perhaps I read it too literally, but that has been my understanding.

But each situation is unique.

The new requirements literally have tag-along scentences with the verb "describe", but I certainly agree that a scouter's observations are important. For transfers (even if they are from within the organization)  an SM's (or PL's - if the troop has him sign of on that req) observations may be limited. I've had to contact other leaders to get a fair picture in such situations.

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