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Eagle1993

Adding Girls to Pack

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Just now, ParkMan said:

I'm sure it's just a matter of time.  My guess is the most everyone will ignore it anyways.  If I recall correctly, there's reporting of who is in which den during recharter - so it seems easy to forget about.

Not den.  Rank.  During recharter you make sure everyone is in the correct rank.  BSA has no idea who's in which den.

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2 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

Not den.  Rank.  During recharter you make sure everyone is in the correct rank.  BSA has no idea who's in which den.

I think we agree.  So how you structure the kids at a particular rank is not known to the BSA.  A pack doesn't even have to pretend.  Just find a male & female to run a den and give the kids the same den number.  

BTW - not suggesting that a scout leader should be dishonest or anything.  Just fully expecting that operational realities will trump the theory.

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4 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

  Just fully expecting that operational realities will trump the theory.

Absolutely.  Reality trumps rules ... ewww ... somehow I just don't feel right these days using the verb "trump".

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Update: No early adopters in my district :(

There is one early adopter in a neighbor district and we are in communication with them to join their pack. About a 20-25 minute one-way drive so not too bad but not too great either.

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

One of the moms, current GSUSA leader asked “what grade do you earn that coveted Eagle”.  I explained that it has nothing to do with age or grade as there are some *shudder* 12 year olds that have earned the rank. I went through the requirements and we talked about all of the Eagle projects around town.  I then explained EBOR and she said it sounded like defending a dissertation.  

I remember when my kid was just joining Tigers. The Pack leaders cam in and walked everyone through that first rank and the requirements. At the end of the meeting half the parents quit (and took their kids) because it was too much work for them.

I can only imagine what some of those types of parents will think about Boy Scout ranks, especially Eagle. How long before even those requirements get watered down.

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43 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I think we agree.  So how you structure the kids at a particular rank is not known to the BSA.  A pack doesn't even have to pretend.  Just find a male & female to run a den and give the kids the same den number.  

It is my understanding that, at least in the current early-adopter program, the pack leaders are making an express commitment to the council to keep the boy dens separate from the girl dens.  Is that incorrect?

Assuming that is the case, I would question the comment that the pack wouldn't have to pretend.  The pack would be making a direct promise not to do something, and then do it anyway.

Update:  Well, here is the agreement, at least in my council: https://ppcbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/SUS-2018-Family-Scouting-unit-application-final.pdf.   I suppose it isn't as crystal-clear as I thought, but it does imply that the girls are in their own den.  I think I have seen a document that is more explicit than this, but I guess this is what the pack and den leaders actually sign.

Edited by NJCubScouter

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17 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

It is my understanding that, at least in the current early-adopter program, the pack leaders are making an express commitment to the council to keep the boy dens separate from the girl dens.  Is that incorrect?

Assuming that is the case, I would question the comment that the pack wouldn't have to pretend.  The pack would be making a direct promise not to do something, and then do it anyway.

Update:  Well, here is the agreement, at least in my council: https://ppcbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/SUS-2018-Family-Scouting-unit-application-final.pdf.   I suppose it isn't as crystal-clear as I thought, but it does imply that the girls are in their own den.  I think I have seen a document that is more explicit than this, but I guess this is what the pack and den leaders actually sign.

I'd not seen the form.  That is very specific.

Interesting to see all the hoops for and early adopter program that heads things off by 6 months or so.

 

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

But, but isn't that what the opposition said would happen and we were assured that there would be policies to keep that sort of thing from happening? Shocked. 

They should've just done it from the start.  Take your licks once and be over it.

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31 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

It is my understanding that, at least in the current early-adopter program, the pack leaders are making an express commitment to the council to keep the boy dens separate from the girl dens.  Is that incorrect?

Assuming that is the case, I would question the comment that the pack wouldn't have to pretend.  The pack would be making a direct promise not to do something, and then do it anyway.

Update:  Well, here is the agreement, at least in my council: https://ppcbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/SUS-2018-Family-Scouting-unit-application-final.pdf.   I suppose it isn't as crystal-clear as I thought, but it does imply that the girls are in their own den.  I think I have seen a document that is more explicit than this, but I guess this is what the pack and den leaders actually sign.

This was much more formal than our arrangement however the rules are consistent.  I have heard of some Packs taking in paper applications and others accepting 5th grade girls.  I’m sure some have already combined dens.

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On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:01 PM, NJCubScouter said:

It is my understanding that, at least in the current early-adopter program, the pack leaders are making an express commitment to the council to keep the boy dens separate from the girl dens.  Is that incorrect?

Assuming that is the case, I would question the comment that the pack wouldn't have to pretend.  The pack would be making a direct promise not to do something, and then do it anyway.

Update:  Well, here is the agreement, at least in my council: https://ppcbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/SUS-2018-Family-Scouting-unit-application-final.pdf.   I suppose it isn't as crystal-clear as I thought, but it does imply that the girls are in their own den.  I think I have seen a document that is more explicit than this, but I guess this is what the pack and den leaders actually sign.

Thanks for posting that link.  That's our Council.  When one of our ASM's said our council was an early adopter, I thought it sounded weird.  The link makes it clear that each Pack can apply to be an early adopter.  Makes much more sense!

We've not seen anywhere near enough interest from girls for our pack to apply.  We'll have another Webelos boy as of Friday, though, and his older brother is coming to our Troop meeting tonight to check it out.

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@Pselb

Before this thread goes down a path of pro/con girls I would recommend (to all) that those posts go in Issues and Politics.  There has been pages of debate and I definitely have no issues seeing that debate continue and I believe you have some valid points and concerns.  I posted this in programs as my goal with this tread is to talk of the actual program as we add girls and issues/challenges/ideas as BSA already made the call and Packs that decide to add girls should have the ability to share experiences and ideas.

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16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

@Pselb

Before this thread goes down a path of pro/con girls I would recommend (to all) that those posts go in Issues and Politics.  There has been pages of debate and I definitely have no issues seeing that debate continue and I believe you have some valid points and concerns.  I posted this in programs as my goal with this tread is to talk of the actual program as we add girls and issues/challenges/ideas as BSA already made the call and Packs that decide to add girls should have the ability to share experiences and ideas.

I moved those posts over to a new I&P topic.

 

\

Edited by RememberSchiff

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Paper applications are now being accepted.  Most of the girls were able to register online but the. BSA payment system seems flaky after a couple of the parents spent hours using various browsers.  One parent said they checked their CC bill and found the BSA had charged them 8 x $33 ($264) (once for each attempt to register).  She said she is sure the BSA will refund the money ...🙄

There is an article online with our major paper and I’m working with them so they spell our Pack number correctly.  The council is having the other Pack lead the media effort and I’m perfectly content.  I think most members in our Pack fall into the category that adding girls is fine... but I don’t think they are looking to be the center of media attention or lead any crusade.

One challenge we are now facing.  We have three girls who are twin sisters of existing Pack members (all Tigers).  Our Tiger den is 26 Scouts.   A couple of them have been going to Pack and den meetings but are not members of the Pack.  They would like to join but the parents are too busy for more den meetings (for the girls den).  So we have started discussions of adding a second girl den, this one dedicated to Tiger girls that would meet same time and place as the boys.  My thought is that we can actually provide more separation between the boys and girls as I’ll have another den leader attend and work with them separately.  The adult partner will be there for both their kids.  Nothing official yet, but we are discussing it.

 

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