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RememberSchiff

Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

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2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

... I can't study advanced coursework and then go to the local university and demand my masters degree, because I "did the work."  I have to follow the requirements as the university lays them out if I want their degree. Unfortunately there are no procedures in place for a situation like this, because Mrs. Ireland is the first who's the challenged the situation in this way. There are specific exceptions made for Scouts from other eligible Scouting organizations worldwide, and she doesn't meet those criteria either. ...

Well, my kids tested out of a few undergraduate courses. Some masters programs also accept work done at non-accredited schools. And, there are honorary degrees for those who contribute to the well-being of an institution or community through their career of non-degree service. Considering that ...

54 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Or, BSA may capitalize on the positive PR Ms. Ireland has already garnered and simply just go with the flow as it has a track record of doing.  She is the media's poster-girl for the movement, has been going through the motions, earned the Canadian rank, and has the right connections.  Why would they not want Ms. Ireland to be in the spotlight.  It would be a PR disaster NOT to make her the first Eagle.

IMHO, it would make better PR if they awarded Katrina Yeaw (or maybe some woman who applied earlier, but whose dad didn't make a court case over it) the 1st Female Eagle. Care about square #1 first, then wind justice forward meticulously. That would give Miss Ireland's Board of Review a little precedent to build from. If candidate zero doesn't deserve it by virtue of rogue-scouting in the wrong era, neither does the current batch of young women in rogue troops.

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11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Well, my kids tested out of a few undergraduate courses. Some masters programs also accept work done at non-accredited schools. And, there are honorary degrees for those who contribute to the well-being of an institution or community through their career of non-degree service. Considering that ...

As did my son.  But at some point in the past, those programs, exams, etc. did not exist.  (There was no "AP" when I was in high school, or at least I don't think there was.  At Rutgers I tested into the second year of college Spanish, but they didn't give me credit for the first year.) Someone had to create those things.  And what would have happened if a college senior found himself, say, 6 credits short to graduate in 4 years and at that moment, the AP program came into existence?  Could he take some AP exams to retroactively pick up those 6 credits?  I'm pretty sure that's a no.

As for honorary degrees, are you suggesting an "honorary Eagle" now?  (In effect, there already is one, Spirit of the Eagle, but to "earn" it you must unfortunately pass away before the age of 18.)  Even if you are, an honorary degree is not the same thing as an actual degree, and an "honorary Eagle" is not Eagle.

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3 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Would you give Eagle to a Trails Life scout who decided he wanted Eagle instead of whatever award it is they give out?

 

I wouldn't because a TLUSA member or his parents made a choice between competing organizations.  However, that wasn't how I understood Hawkin's argument.  I understood him to say that Ms. Ireland did the work with Scouts Canada because she wanted to be a scout and it was the only (or one of a limited number of) option open to her.  As such, her work there should be transferred to the BSA now that we are an option for her (almost).  NJ posited a girl TX didn't have the same benefit to which I added the BPSA wrinkle.  I'm just trying to understand Hawkin's argument a bit more.  Is it "doing the work" or "doing the work in a WOSM affiliated organization?"  If it's the former then NJ/my hypothetical girl in TX could make the same claim.

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48 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Is it "doing the work" or "doing the work in a WOSM affiliated organization?" 

Doing the work in an affiliated organization. In other words, if under the rules, we would accept that same work from a Canadian resident in Scouts Canada (boy or girl), then we should accept Ms. Ireland's work under the same standard. We have a policy in place to do exactly that - allow credit in BSA for work completed in Scouts Canada.

We should not discriminate against her simply because she is an American and we lacked the foresight to write a policy that would accommodate a scout (male at the time the policy was written) that joined a foreign organization but was a US citizen.

To do otherwise is to allow Canadian boys and girls the privilege credit for their work completed while excluding US citizens - and I can't see how we advance the Oath or Law with such a restriction.

No special provisions or reducing the age requirements, just grant her the same thing we would grant any other transfer from Scouts Canada, no more and no less.

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And when all the dust settles, BSA National can do anything it wishes to do and we all know how smoothly that plays out in the program.

Honorary degrees are just as valid as earned degrees.  They are only issued on a PR basis to promote the institutions that give them out.  This "precedent" is as American as apple pie.  Never underestimate the workings of an organized committee of any size or nature.

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4 hours ago, Stosh said:

It would be a PR disaster NOT to make her the first Eagle.

I believe that the bigger PR disaster would be for the first (or any) female Eagle to get the rank due to a change in the requirements, a loophole, an exception, a "creative interpretation" of an existing rule, or anything else other than the fulfillment of the same requirements that a boy must meet.

And, whatever the Eagle may mean to any of us, to National "Eagle Scout" is a "brand."  They may regard it as their most valuable "brand," even more than the name of the organization itself.  I do not think they want to do anything to dilute that brand.

Well look at that, the idealistic me and the cynical me turned up in the same post.

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1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

Doing the work in an affiliated organization. In other words, if under the rules, we would accept that same work from a Canadian resident in Scouts Canada (boy or girl), then we should accept Ms. Ireland's work under the same standard. We have a policy in place to do exactly that - allow credit in BSA for work completed in Scouts Canada.

We should not discriminate against her simply because she is an American and we lacked the foresight to write a policy that would accommodate a scout (male at the time the policy was written) that joined a foreign organization but was a US citizen.

To do otherwise is to allow Canadian boys and girls the privilege credit for their work completed while excluding US citizens - and I can't see how we advance the Oath or Law with such a restriction.

No special provisions or reducing the age requirements, just grant her the same thing we would grant any other transfer from Scouts Canada, no more and no less.

You're twisting GTA 5.0.4.0 beyond its intent. We are to never accept work from a Canadian resident member of Scouts Canada. The guide is clear on the intended beneficiary:

  • Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here ...

That wording precludes youth who never resided in the US, youth who permanently resided in the US, and youth who mostly reside in the US but temporarily (using the loosest possible definition of the term) leave the US to participate in another scout program. Moreover, it sets bounds on which ranks may be rewarded:

  • Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive.

Furthermore, it is only intended to recognize skills acquisition, not participation, responsibility, or leadership:

  • Requirements for active participation, position of responsibility, Scout spirit, the service project, and the unit leader conference must be completed in a BSA unit.

Here's a "real-world" example of how I applied this last year: an exchange student already knew the oath and law (and the history of Scouting's origins and a whole lot of other stuff that our boys routinely forget) in Italian, so we reviewed those with the council venturing advisor and council committee chair. Everyone concluded that she didn't have to redo those for her Venturer award. However, her time since age 14, nor any meetings, activities, personal growth, etc ... in Italy would not count toward participation, etc ... for BSA awards. She would have to do all those here while in our crew if she wanted BSA's awards. It made scouting fun for everyone.

Editied: I also want to point out that my example earlier (a BSA scout overseas away from his troop) didn't capture the intent of GTA 5.0.4.0.

Edited by qwazse
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20 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I believe that the bigger PR disaster would be for the first (or any) female Eagle to get the rank due to a change in the requirements, a loophole, an exception, a "creative interpretation" of an existing rule, or anything else other than the fulfillment of the same requirements that a boy must meet.

And, whatever the Eagle may mean to any of us, to National "Eagle Scout" is a "brand."  They may regard it as their most valuable "brand," even more than the name of the organization itself.  I do not think they want to do anything to dilute that brand.

Well look at that, the idealistic me and the cynical me turned up in the same post.

I don't think BSA National gives a hoot what anyone "believes".  As far as branding is concerned 100 years of Boy Scouts ranks a bit higher than the Eagle rank.  They didn't concern themselves with any moral issues with the homosexual or the confused sexual issues.  and they quickly changed tack when the winds of social issues blew from completely different directions, i.e. too militaristic, younger ages, female participation. career development, STEM, and a multitude of other issues coming on the scene in the past 50 years.   With a track record like that,  what makes anyone think what comes out of national will be anything to do with branding.  If anyone brings to the surface an issue that isn't Kosher, it doesn't mean a thing and one can't send them off to their room if one doesn't like their actions.  For some reason, people don't always think the "handwriting on the wall" is of any validity.

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51 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I believe that the bigger PR disaster would be for the first (or any) female Eagle to get the rank due to a change in the requirements, a loophole, an exception, a "creative interpretation" of an existing rule, or anything else other than the fulfillment of the same requirements that a boy must meet.

And, whatever the Eagle may mean to any of us, to National "Eagle Scout" is a "brand."  They may regard it as their most valuable "brand," even more than the name of the organization itself.  I do not think they want to do anything to dilute that brand.

Well look at that, the idealistic me and the cynical me turned up in the same post.

Maybe it would be smarter PR to have a group of first female Eagles than one first female Eagle.

 

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49 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Yeah, like 50-75 all at one time..... Make it a ticker-tape parade.

Might not be a bad idea, maybe during the Rose Bowl Parade. Didn't we parade a group of Eagle Scouts a few years ago?

 

Edited by RememberSchiff

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The Tournament of Roses Scout Troop may be just the PR event to publicize new female  Eagle Scouts!

http://www.tournamenttroop.org/

The Tournament of Roses Troop makes its appearance in the Tournament of Roses Parade every year.

Each year a new Troop is formed by selected Eagle Scouts from the Greater Los Angeles Area Council and selected Gold Award Girl Scouts (Girl Scouts) from the Girl Scouts of Greater Los Angeles .

P.S. @Stosh great suggestion.

Edited by RememberSchiff

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Wasn't there somebody who earned Eagle Scout as a boy and NOW had trans-gendered to a female? Wouldn't she be the first Eagle Scout? Just sayin'.

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2 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Wasn't there somebody who earned Eagle Scout as a boy and NOW had trans-gendered to a female? Wouldn't she be the first Eagle Scout? Just sayin'.

There is an Eagle scout promoting him/herself as that.

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