Jump to content
RememberSchiff

Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, EmberMike said:

She earned the Chief Scout's Award in Scouts Canada, but completed merit badges and rank requirements in the BSA without badge recognition. 

How can she earn MBs and rank in the BSA if she is not a boy Scout? Even female Sea Scouts, who need to do MB skills for some of their advancement, do not earn MBs, and they are members of the BSA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

My best friend as a Scout earned piles of Merit Badges, was a great leader, and was admired by all.  The  leg brace he wore due to polio prevented his earning Eagle (no Life Saving MB).  He took that better than I did.  He told me that he always knew he could not Eagle.

Fortunately the BSA today allows for disability exceptions for Eagle-required merit badges. Kind of a weird comparison, don't you think? The BSA didn't allow girls, and now they do. The BSA didn't make exceptions for disabilities in the past, and now they do. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, it is a great analogy.  I took all my classes at the local University and I will bet dollars to donuts that I wasn't going to bet my diploma from Yale or Harvard no matter how much pull my dad may have had.  Try that transfer stuff, maybe half will transfer at best. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

How can she earn MBs and rank in the BSA if she is not a boy Scout? Even female Sea Scouts, who need to do MB skills for some of their advancement, do not earn MBs, and they are members of the BSA.

I'm not saying she earned MBs and rank. She completed requirements, but as I stated, she was not recognized with badge awards for said MBs and ranks. 

I would, however, argue that given her history within the BSA program (even if unofficially), and her awards with Scouts Canada, she could be granted an exception and given some earned credit towards rank in the BSA, which would make it more feasible that she could actually reach Eagle rank when she is able to officially join. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, EmberMike said:

Fortunately the BSA today allows for disability exceptions for Eagle-required merit badges. Kind of a weird comparison, don't you think? The BSA didn't allow girls, and now they do. The BSA didn't make exceptions for disabilities in the past, and now they do. 

 

Nope, I had a scout that was 34 years old, Life Scout still working on his Eagle.  BSA can write any rules it wants.  As I said before Mrs. Ireland will be the first female eagle scout by hook or by crook.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree, you allow one exception you open yourself up to more and more allowances and  exceptions. IMHO we are now allowing  girls because some folks didn't want to follow the rules and wanted exceptions.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I disagree, you allow one exception you open yourself up to more and more allowances and  exceptions. IMHO we are now allowing  girls because some folks didn't want to follow the rules and wanted exceptions.

 

I'm not personally aware of any other girl with the Scouting background Sydney has, or with her list of awards and achievements in both the BSA and Scouts Canada. She'd be a rare exception, if she is made an exception at all in this case. 

I do get your point, if you let one girl in early, the question of letting them all in early does come up. But I believe that question is easily squashed when it is pointed out that they'd be letting one girl with a stellar 12-year Scouting resume in as an exception, and that her background plays significantly into that decision. 

Edited by EmberMike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well with the number of girls who have been "unofficial members" or troops over the years, I bet you that if they get lawyers like Ms. I has, they could argue that they earned eagle too.

 

Sorry no exceptions

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

I'm not personally aware of any other girl with the Scouting background Sydney has, or with her list of awards and achievements in both the BSA and Scouts Canada. She'd be a rare exception, if she is made an exception at all in this case. 

No, this girl has no awards or achievements in BSA.  I could sit in college classes and audit them for 4 years, but that doesn't qualify me for a degree.  I was not registered or enrolled.  If I had done that, I would need to retake all those courses for credit to get a degree. 

I do get your point, if you let one girl in early, the question of letting them all in early does come up. But I believe that question is easily squashed when it is pointed out that they'd be letting one girl with a stellar 12-year Scouting resume in as an exception, and that her background plays significantly into that decision. 

I'm afraid that if pursued, I would raise an eyebrow or two on this gal's honesty/trustworthiness.  She has not obeyed all the rules as outlined and has skirted around them (no pun intended) and now makes a false claim as to her achievements.  This alone would detract from the honor of the Eagle rank.  This isn't just Ms. Ireland, anyone who garners the acolades of Eagle through any avenues other than those prescribed by BSA, take the honor of the award down a notch.  How important is that?  If one were to even put on a Congressional Medal of Honor, that hadn't been awarded it, they would be sitting in a Federal Prison thinking about how stupid that was to do that.  Ms. Ireland will parade around her unearned accomplishments.    In spite of it all I still think BSA is going to buckle and give her the rank whether anyone feels she's earned it or not.  Keep it in mind that BSA is taking on female membership, but running parallel programs so if Ms. Ireland gets the Eagle she will do so under the parallel program BSA4G, not BSA.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, EmberMike said:

There's no precedent for this kind of thing. And it also doesn't have to be a Pandora's Box as @HelpfulTracks mentioned. This girl is unique, she's been in and around Scouting her whole life. She's active in other scouting organizations. Maybe this would set a precedent for other girls in the same situation, but how many girls could we really be talking about, who have the relevant experience she does? Can't be more than a handful. 

Let her try it. She's proven herself resourceful, motivated, smart, and certainly brave. All qualities I'd like to see in any Eagle Scout. I think she's earned the right to at least apply for an exception/extension and let National hear her out on it.

 

 

4 hours ago, EmberMike said:

Just to give a little clarity to the argument that she is not just any girl trying to fast-track an Eagle badge, her Scouting resume includes the following: 

• 12 years in Scouting as unofficial member of a Pack and Troop (Troop 414 in NY). 
• Arrow of Light recipient
• Member of Scouts Canada
• Member of Scouts Canada Venturing program
• Earned Canada's Chief Scout's Award (highest award in program)
• Full participant in Pack and Troop activities, trips, camping, etc. 
• Patrol Leader in her Troop
• Completed rank and merit badge requirements, but without badge recognition

If this opens a "Pandora's Box" and there are numerous girls with the same credentials who want consideration for Eagle, I'd be both incredibly surprised and incredibly impressed. 

 

1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

I'm not personally aware of any other girl with the Scouting background Sydney has, or with her list of awards and achievements in both the BSA and Scouts Canada. She'd be a rare exception, if she is made an exception at all in this case. 

I do get your point, if you let one girl in early, the question of letting them all in early does come up. But I believe that question is easily squashed when it is pointed out that they'd be letting one girl with a stellar 12-year Scouting resume in as an exception, and that her background plays significantly into that decision. 

Yes, she is unique. Every situation, every person is unique.

The requirements are not, they are standard.

So we change the standard just for her, because she is unique. So now everyone that is unique has a precedent to work from.

What about the poor girl from Iowa, who lives in a community of Troops that followed the rules? Lesson learned, follow the rules, and you have good character. Don't follow the rules and you get what you want, and a Eagle Scout to put on your resume. But little else. I think we fail them both in that circumstance. Maybe more importantly, you are telling Troops around the country, that it is okay to ignore policy, do it long enough and with enough good press any its all okay, we will reward you.

If there is a legitimate way for to EARN Eagle Scout, then more power to her, I will wish her well and congratulations.

But, if that path requires, bending or breaking rules, or making exceptions, then no.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Ms. Ireland will parade around her unearned accomplishments. 

How is it "unearned" if she is able to complete the requirements? She can become a BSA member, sooner or later yet to be determined, she can do the requirements, and she might possibly qualify for an extension past her 18th birthday to finish up, which needs to be approved and granted by National. 

I don't think anyone is asking for her to be given anything she didn't earn on paper already. She's a Chief Scout's Award recipient, which surely has some parallel requirements. Service hours, for example, or specific proficiencies that match those in the BSA. There are precedents for transferring requirements earned from Scouts Canada to BSA. If anyone thinks that's special treatment, feel free to also complain about any boy who transferred international requirement credit to their BSA book. 

I don't know exactly how those requirements line up, and how far up in rank she could get based on transfer credit, but it should at least take a little time off her trail to Eagle. My understanding is that she is 16 1/2 now, so if she gets this request for early admission approved and get some credit for Canada-earned requirements, she is well on her way to possibly finishing by 18. Or maybe with a slight extension needed. 

Either way, she could potentially do this by the book, a fully earned Eagle rank with every requirement by the book, and one exception needed for timing. Which I think should be given on the basis of merit and her contributions to furthering the progress of the Scouting movement in America. I know you don't see it that way, but if National does, it's not your call to say anything she accomplishes is "unearned". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, HelpfulTracks said:

If there is a legitimate way for to EARN Eagle Scout, then more power to her, I will wish her well and congratulations.

But, if that path requires, bending or breaking rules, or making exceptions, then no.

If National signs off on either A.) Approval to begin with a troop immediately or B.) Approval for an extension to continue working towards Eagle past 18, and then she does it, that's not breaking the rules, right? 

I know that what National does isn't always met with praise around here. I've been critical of some of the things they've done, even within the context of the "girls in scouting" discussion. But what they put on paper and sign off on is the rule, whether we agree with it or not. So if they give her a path to Eagle and she fulfills it, she's an Eagle Scout, same as me and everyone else who earned it and had National sign off on it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Stosh said:

Oh, it is a great analogy.  I took all my classes at the local University and I will bet dollars to donuts that I wasn't going to bet my diploma from Yale or Harvard no matter how much pull my dad may have had.  Try that transfer stuff, maybe half will transfer at best. 

Maybe a better analogy is citizenship.

You see my bother over here, he has applied for citizenship. He met the eligibility requirements, but I didn't. But, I still went everywhere he did and we worked together at XYZ company. He passed all the interviews and test and I took them too, because the local department bent the rules. Oh, by the way, I went off to Canada and became an official Canuck. So you should make me a citizen here also.

Makes perfect sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, EmberMike said:

If National signs off on either A.) Approval to begin with a troop immediately or B.) Approval for an extension to continue working towards Eagle past 18, and then she does it, that's not breaking the rules, right? 

I know that what National does isn't always met with praise around here. I've been critical of some of the things they've done, even within the context of the "girls in scouting" discussion. But what they put on paper and sign off on is the rule, whether we agree with it or not. So if they give her a path to Eagle and she fulfills it, she's an Eagle Scout, same as me and everyone else who earned it and had National sign off on it. 

A & B would be the exceptions I was referring too.

And if that is an exception that BSA is willing to make, I would rather them just do away with the age requirement altogether. Why make an exception for her an not everyone with a great story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

A & B would be the exceptions I was referring too.

And if that is an exception that BSA is willing to make, I would rather them just do away with the age requirement altogether. Why make an exception for her an not everyone with a great story.

They do make exceptions for people with great stories. 

I think that's what I don't get in a lot of the arguments against this. She wouldn't be the first to get an extension. She wouldn't be the first to (potentially) transfer rank requirement credit to BSA from Canada, if that is even something she's considering doing (I haven't seen anywhere her saying she would do that).

Would this all be considered "special treatment"? Sure. But it's not special only to her, as plenty of boys have had these kinds of exceptions made for them. 

The one thing that might happen that of course would be unique to her would be to be granted permission to start in the BSA officially before her gender is allowed to officially join. That's unique to her for obvious reasons. Everything else, and the various paths she has to Eagle, could potentially be done using no new exceptions and nothing that National hasn't done already for other scouts. If National says next week that she's free to join officially, and if my understanding of the story is correct and she is currently 16, she can still make it by 18.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×