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Ireland seeks Eagle now before she ages out

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29 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I'm not judging the dad like @Col. Flagg seems to be. I'm just ignoring him. That's how we do rank advancement around here. The parent's word never counts for that much, although it is nice to see their letter of recommendation.

When someone disingenuously puts forward a strawman -- like Mr. Ireland is doing as a reason for letting his daughter in faster -- it is hard not to judge someone.

@EmberMike, why just her. I am sure there are many other boys and girls who would like an "Ireland Exception". Why does this girl get the recognition? Rich parents? Being the biggest complainer? What about the other girls who are affected by this? What happens to them if we give this girl a pass? 

Edited by Col. Flagg

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2 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

 

@EmberMike, why just her. I am sure there are many other boys and girls who would like an "Ireland Exception". Why does this girl get the recognition? Rich parents? Being the biggest complainer? What about the other girls who are affected by this? What happens to them if we give this girl a pass? 

 

Why is someone that is advocating for something she believes in a "complainer" in your book? Just because she (and me and a lot of other Scouters) believe something that you don't? 

Anyone is able to apply for an extension for Eagle. Any other girl who joins the program can do the same. 

Do I think this girl is exceptional and maybe deserves a little more consideration in this matter? Sure. She put herself out there, endured harsh criticism and ridicule over this. For something that all she stood to gain at the end of it all was the right to join the organization. That's pretty brave in my book. It also was done without the expectation that the policy would ever change. It just so happens that it is changing while she's still of scouting age. 

Also keep in mind she's not 20 and asking for this. She would actually still be youth age at the time she could join. She just needs an extension on the age-out policy, something that plenty of boys get, too. If she isn't allowed to at least apply for the extension like anyone else, that's wrong. 

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14 hours ago, EmberMike said:

Why is someone that is advocating for something she believes in a "complainer" in your book? Just because she (and me and a lot of other Scouters) believe something that you don't? 

Anyone is able to apply for an extension for Eagle. Any other girl who joins the program can do the same. 

Do I think this girl is exceptional and maybe deserves a little more consideration in this matter? Sure. She put herself out there, endured harsh criticism and ridicule over this. For something that all she stood to gain at the end of it all was the right to join the organization. That's pretty brave in my book. It also was done without the expectation that the policy would ever change. It just so happens that it is changing while she's still of scouting age. 

Also keep in mind she's not 20 and asking for this. She would actually still be youth age at the time she could join. She just needs an extension on the age-out policy, something that plenty of boys get, too. If she isn't allowed to at least apply for the extension like anyone else, that's wrong. 

That would be opening a massive Pandora's box.

As far as I have seen extension are given for medical reasons or for special needs Scouts, a date range for a policy change does not fit the spirit of the extension rule. Exceptions are given on a case by case basis and need a darn good reason.

Even if BSA concluded that the policy change IS a darn good reason, which I do not think it is, and doubt BSA will either, that would set up the situation where any girl 17 years 364 days old or less could ask for an extension. Denying the extension to some and not others would be a potential legal nightmare. Dozens, maybe hundreds or even thousands of girls litigating for the same exemption. At a tipping point BSA almost certainly would be financially forced to decide any girl who joined before age 18 has an automatic 2 year extension. You then have bunch of young men who want to same extension. Many more that just missed it asking for an extension. Running down the rabbit hole you could find many more reasons that could cause litigation and take money away from the program.

Set a date policy and stick to it. Having one high profile legal action is much better than a possible onslaught of many more.

If it were my daughter I would feel horrible for her, but I have taught my children that not everything goes your way.

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18 hours ago, qwazse said:

One thing I am not a fan of: conferring rank on the basis of the squeaky wheel.

 

Me neither. And I have seen it happen .  The youth was given Eagle on appeal to national, and the entire district advancement committee resigned in protest.

 

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19 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

When someone disingenuously puts forward a strawman -- like Mr. Ireland is doing as a reason for letting his daughter in faster -- it is hard not to judge someone.

Of course it's hard to tune out parents who advocate unnecessarily for otherwise competent scouts. The only thing that's harder: helping scouts tune out scouters who use the youth's story to take swipes at his/her parents. In this case, I'm pretty sure there aren't personal grudges against Mr. I (maybe his profession, but I wager that's only inasmuch as his sound bytes are likely crafted through that framework). That's all the more reason to not get hung up on the extent to which he has made this a publicity stunt.

I have no idea if she's exceptional. Either Miss I's done everything that your typical boy-scout who advances a rank a year has done, or she hasn't. I don't give a wintertime's snot about "media spotlights" or other obstacles.  Like every young woman (or young man) who I've met, I want to know how she's lived up to the oath and law, what went well, what didn't go so well, what he/she would do differently ... and I want to know if there's anything I or my scouts could do to aid in any desired personal growth. Well, not me personally, but I'd like her boards of review to be that way. The actions and personalities of her relatives have no bearing on any of that.

I guess @EmberMike, this is where I think an extension doesn't apply. Extensions have to do with needing time to complete rank, given that the scout has already started. That is we have a Life scout who has been so for six months, but life -- especially some scouting obligation or duty to country - has intervened to make completing the project or earning that last MB impossible  between age 17.5 and 18 for example ... however it's likely that as soon as that duty is complete, the scout could wrap things between age 18 and 18.5. In Miss I's case, she hasn't even "started" officially working on rank, so an extension to start at age 17.5 makes no sense. If it did, any boy who could not join scouts until age 17 -- for some other reason, like maybe he was an atheist until then -- could file for an extension.

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20 hours ago, EmberMike said:

Why is someone that is advocating for something she believes in a "complainer" in your book? Just because she (and me and a lot of other Scouters) believe something that you don't? 

Anyone is able to apply for an extension for Eagle. Any other girl who joins the program can do the same. 

Do I think this girl is exceptional and maybe deserves a little more consideration in this matter? Sure. She put herself out there, endured harsh criticism and ridicule over this. For something that all she stood to gain at the end of it all was the right to join the organization. That's pretty brave in my book. It also was done without the expectation that the policy would ever change. It just so happens that it is changing while she's still of scouting age. 

Also keep in mind she's not 20 and asking for this. She would actually still be youth age at the time she could join. She just needs an extension on the age-out policy, something that plenty of boys get, too. If she isn't allowed to at least apply for the extension like anyone else, that's wrong. 

She’s not even started the Scout tank yet. She’s got that to do firs and all the other requirements too. Just like I had to do. Unless bsa changes requirements to make even that easier. 

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1 minute ago, Back Pack said:

She’s not even started the Scout tank yet. She’s got that to do firs and all the other requirements too. Just like I had to do. Unless bsa changes requirements to make even that easier. 

She will have started by the time she can join, and she'll still be youth age. Sure she'll be 17, but it's not like she hasn't been a scout all this time. Surely some of her experience in the Scouts Canada program would transfer credit for reqs over to the BSA program. No one is saying to make it easier for her. Just to give her a chance to maybe finish the requirements and make her case for an extension on time allowed. 

There's no precedent for this kind of thing. And it also doesn't have to be a Pandora's Box as @HelpfulTracks mentioned. This girl is unique, she's been in and around Scouting her whole life. She's active in other scouting organizations. Maybe this would set a precedent for other girls in the same situation, but how many girls could we really be talking about, who have the relevant experience she does? Can't be more than a handful. 

Let her try it. She's proven herself resourceful, motivated, smart, and certainly brave. All qualities I'd like to see in any Eagle Scout. I think she's earned the right to at least apply for an exception/extension and let National hear her out on it.

 

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:27 PM, Back Pack said:

Yes it does. Have guys gotten their Eagle because they were In Eagle mills? Yes. That’s way different than breaking, not bending, the rules for this girl. It makes my accomplishment worthless because I worked 7 long years, lead a troop through four years as SPL and Jasm and  [edit] they GAVE it to her because of her gender. That makes the award meaningless because they just given it away. 

If you work 80 hours a week for your money and I work 2 hours a week for the same pay is that fair? Do you not feel cheated? Cmon. 

Yes.  Different.  The first is cheating.  The second is changing the rules, like no longer requiring Life Saving for Eagle.  Eagle was once 1%.  Now approaches 7%. 

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Just to give a little clarity to the argument that she is not just any girl trying to fast-track an Eagle badge, her Scouting resume includes the following: 

• 12 years in Scouting as unofficial member of a Pack and Troop (Troop 414 in NY). 
• Arrow of Light recipient
• Member of Scouts Canada
• Member of Scouts Canada Venturing program
• Earned Canada's Chief Scout's Award (highest award in program)
• Full participant in Pack and Troop activities, trips, camping, etc. 
• Patrol Leader in her Troop
• Completed rank and merit badge requirements, but without badge recognition

If this opens a "Pandora's Box" and there are numerous girls with the same credentials who want consideration for Eagle, I'd be both incredibly surprised and incredibly impressed. 

Edited by EmberMike

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4 minutes ago, EmberMike said:

Just to give a little clarity to the argument that she is not just any girl trying to fast-track an Eagle badge, her Scouting resume includes the following: 

• 12 years in Scouting as unofficial member of a Pack and Troop (Troop 414 in NY). 
• Arrow of Light recipient
• Member of Scouts Canada
• Member of Scouts Canada Venturing program
• Earned Canada's Chief Scout's Award (highest award in program)
• Full participant in Pack and Troop activities, trips, camping, etc. 
• Patrol Leader in her Troop
Completed rank and merit badge requirements, but without badge recognition

If this opens a "Pandora's Box" and there are numerous girls with the same credentials who want consideration for Eagle, I'd be both incredibly surprised and incredibly impressed. 

 

Question.

1) Either youa re a member or you are not?

2) How can she earn the AOL if she was not a Cub Scout, but a "tagalong"

3)If she earned the Chief Scout Award, how can she not completed rank and MBs and not be recognized?

 

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3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If she earned the Chief Scout Award, how can she not completed rank and MBs and not be recognized?

She earned the Chief Scout's Award in Scouts Canada, but completed merit badges and rank requirements in the BSA without badge recognition. 

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Just because I took classes in one college doesn't mean I get a degree from another.

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One obvious observation is, because she was not a Scout member of B.S.A., she neither qualified for Merit Badges or rank advancement.  She knew that at the time.  Now she, and her parents, want to go back and rewrite history.

 

My best friend as a Scout earned piles of Merit Badges, was a great leader, and was admired by all.  The  leg brace he wore due to polio prevented his earning Eagle (no Life Saving MB).  He took that better than I did.  He told me that he always knew he could not Eagle.

But, then, he outranked me as we looked at it, because he wore the Honor Medal.

He was elected SPL twice - unanimously I believe.  120-0 (twice) salves a lot of potential hurt.

I doubt that his parents either thought less of him or communicated that he had fallen short.

 

Edited by TAHAWK
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2 hours ago, Stosh said:

Just because I took classes in one college doesn't mean I get a degree from another.

Actually it does. College credits transfer. Not a great analogy if you're trying to say that Sydney's experience shouldn't count for anything in the BSA. 

Edited by EmberMike

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