How about those who prefer leaders keep their hands off the kids?

[perdidochas 658]

38 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I think you know what I meant -- Scouts are at camp the parents go out on a date while their kids are away at camp.  

Don't tell the leaders that. They might not want to camp as much.....   

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Yes, I've encountered situations where Explorers/Venturers here in the States have hooked up on outings. One case involved two summer camp staffers, one of whom was the director of support services's daughter. In another, the young lady ran away from home because she disagreed with parents. As she was 18, nothing the parents could do, but the council pros involved were in a very uncomfortable situation. Thankfully everything worked out with her family, and the couple are married.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

29 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

I have not heard about Den Chief. New YPT will need to be taken annually (rather than every two years) and will take over one hour to complete.

Oh boy.  I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring an annual YPT refresher, but the full course, I don't know.  It has been tough enough for our CC's to get some people to take the course every TWO years and some people have been dropped from positions because of it.  Personally I think the annual refresher could just be requiring that people read the YP guidelines again and sign a form swearing (or affirming) that they have read them, and maybe add that you just have to take the test online, not the whole video.

As for the full course going back to being over an hour (which it was the last time I took the in-person course rather than online), I think that is probably a good idea, assuming of course that the content is well-presented.  I really feel that the current online course, which is about 30 minutes, skates over the content way too quickly, especially for someone taking it for the first time.  (I know, I'm like the kid asking the teacher for more homework for the entire class.)  I thought the old in-person course was better, even though I cringed every time I had to watch that kid describing how he was molested by an older Scout.  On the other hand I always enjoyed the telephone call between the SM and CC in which the SM basically asks whether he can blatantly violate the 2-deep leadership rule on an overnight, and the guy playing the CC (and overacting a bit) tells him no, you can't.  Some kind of blend between the older format and the current overview-from-50,000-feet version, doable online, would be better.  Every two years in my opinion, with a "review" in alternating years.

24 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

About rumored new Den Chief training, the thought was what to do with girl dens? Can they have Boy Scouts as Den Chiefs?

For that matter, will a "girl den" be able to have a male Den Leader, without having a female assistant leader?  I am not talking about camping, I am talking about den meetings.

Edited December 13, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Col. Flagg 909]

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

OK, Stosh says the boys will lose, Flagg says the girls will lose, we'll have to see what actually happens.

Yes, there will need to be more leaders.  That means welcoming to the new people who show up to help out.   

If patrols are youth run, if I understand Stosh correctly, the adults aren't all that important!     The BSA has a wealth of training materials and there's always Youtube for learning to do lashings and practically any other Scout skill. 

We'll have to see how it goes. 

Actually, I was addressing your comments about chauvinistic male leaders when I said the girls will lose out. @Stosh is exactly right when he says the boys will lose out. I suspect he's talking about the degradation of the single-sex Scouting program that has been so successful, and the erosion of places where guys can go to "be guys" without people thinking that's a bad thing.

If you think the "new parents" (I assumed you imply these are the parents of girls) will suddenly sign up, then you and I have two TOTALLY different experiences in Scouting. Whether incoming guys or girls, whether Boy Scouts or Venturing, "new parents" avoid volunteering like the plague. The younger they are the more this is true (in my experience). I have yet to see, in over 13 years as an adult leader, a trickle (let alone stampede) of new parents joining to help.

As for training and BSA's materials, again, things are lacking. Wood badge does nothing to help Scouters understand allowing the patrol method to work, grounding helicopter parents/leaders or in addressing the most common needs affecting troops and packs. The training materials discuss HOW to conduct a training session but not what to discuss. The last thing one wants it a YouTube Scouter teaching anything. There's the Scout Handbook. If that cannot be used to teach the program then we are in HUGE trouble.

One thing bothers me in all of this. Your posts seems to rely a great deal on adult intervention. Maybe I am inferring too much. Maybe I'm not. The main role of adult leaders is to train the Scouts to do their jobs. Once they are trained it is the SCOUTS that teach TFC and such, not the adults. Adult leaders are around for health and safety or being MBCs. Anything more and, to steal from Jeff Foxworthy, "You might be a helicopter parent." Not saying "you" means you specifically...more the general "you" including all of us.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

One of the things I remember not only being taught when I did BA 22, but also taught when staffing JLT was "Counseling." I remember when I had issues, I went to the ASPL or SPL. They were my mentors, not the adults. Even when I was ASPL and acting SPL, it was my peers I went to, not the adults. @Col. Flagg brings up a very good point regarding adult intervention. Heck it is even discouraged that Scouts deal with discipline problems in their units anymore.

[Col. Flagg 909]

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One of the things I remember not only being taught when I did BA 22, but also taught when staffing JLT was "Counseling." I remember when I had issues, I went to the ASPL or SPL. They were my mentors, not the adults. Even when I was ASPL and acting SPL, it was my peers I went to, not the adults. @Col. Flagg brings up a very good point regarding adult intervention. Heck it is even discouraged that Scouts deal with discipline problems in their units anymore.

Spot on.

And notice I used the term "adult Scouter". I did that purposely so as not to imply "parents" were needed at ANY Boy Scout or Venturing function. Scouting in those two programs need the MINIMUM of adult leaders around...EVER!! We don't need mom or dad the parent. We don't need sister Susie or brother Johnny. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Col. Flagg

[RememberSchiff 3662]

I hid @Col. Flagg recent post, pending review by moderators.

How others parent their own kids is not part of the discussion.

[Col. Flagg 909]

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I hid @Col. Flagg recent post, pending review by moderators.

How others parent their own kids is not part of the discussion.

Good Lord. It was a nicely worded question she could either answer or not.

You guys need a consistency filter because you sure don't apply rules evenly.

[RememberSchiff 3662]

Getting off-topic I split @WisconsinMomma recent post

 

[TAHAWK 1420]

On 12/12/2017 at 3:48 PM, Col. Flagg said:

I disagree though about the "He-man Woman Haters" (that's for you @Stosh and @TAHAWK) being the ones who will have problems in this new coed environment. Those guys are entrenched in BSA and won't budge. The know so much and are usually the heavy lifters that if you got rid of them your district or council would grind to a halt.

Not sure where you get the facts to leap to this erroneous canard.

I fully supported female commissioned Scouters as a District Chair.    Please note that I gave largely stayed out of the "end of the world" thread, as I went through that almost thirty years ago when we got female uniformed Scouters and I appointed several to district jobs on merit, yet here we are, as I  already noted.  The World did not end.

I actively helped convinced National to allow our NYLT course in 2010 to have two female participants a year early so they could staff the first official year of female participants.  They were great participants - both elected PL.  Both great staffers the next year.  Both had been great WB staffers in 2009, as so many ladies have been for years and years.

I have noted that we have had female youth members for decades.

I am worried about how it will be handled and to what end(s), but that is hardly a matter of gender.

I happily worked for two female direct superiors as a department head my last seven years at the Phone Company.

I will leave it at that since this is supposed to be a Scouting forum.

Edited December 14, 2017 by TAHAWK

[Stosh 3452]

Hmmm..... I do believe I have more experience than anyone on this forum working with co-ed youth programs.  Anyone out there been able to successfully hold a Venturing Crew together for more than 13 years?  Not many I'm sure. The He-man Women Hater part of me has nothing to do with women, but has everything to do with trying to preserve the unique nature of BSA in our society.  A "safe-place" (borrowing from today's rhetoric) for boys to focus on developing a caring moral character in today's society.  Well, now that that has been changed, there's no real reason to play the charade of BOY Scouts anymore.  The program has become a "johnny-come-lately" to the world of co-ed youth programs and there are plenty of co-ed programs out there that are doing just that with a lot more experience and expertise.  At my age, it's a great temptation to either find something else to do, or join a co-ed program already successfully being run.  I guess my "Woman-Hater" part of me says why not the easy path for a change.  My expertise will work "over there" just as well.  As has been identified by others, "I'm not leaving the program because they took on girls, I'm leaving became the program left me."  That just may be the case, depending on how much effort I want to put into the new and improved "Boy" Scouts.

 

[Eagledad 2777]

Hmm, I took the Flags post as complementing stosh and TAHAWK for their passion and a big hole would be left in the program without them. Nothing about being anti feminist.

Many of us believe the quality of the program for the boys will decline with the inclusion of girls. Hey, we watched the quality decline with the addition of female troop leaders. It is inevitable. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with how the female gender is respected.

Barry

[Back Pack 431]

I had to google but I think he meant you guys were old enough to remember the little rascals. I think that’s the show. Thanks google. 

[Stosh 3452]

Dang, at my age, it's difficult enough to remember what I had for breakfast.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

36 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Dang, at my age, it's difficult enough to remember what I had for breakfast.

You get breakfast?