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ianwilkins

What do you mean by "men" and "manly"?

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As a parent, the middle-school and high school coed outdoor clubs that I have known have had few adults involved. Two or three outdoorsy manly or amazonly advisors and none of them were student parents. Transportation via school mini-buses.  Funded by school district. There are no uniforms, advancements, or fundraisers, just a much leaner and meaner outdoor leadership and adventure experience.  That is what the BSA needs to relearn.

 

My $0.02

 

I think this is an unfair comparison - your keys words here are "Funded by school district".  Let me make that even clearer - funded by taxpayers.  This puts the school district at an unfair advantage, wouldn't you say?  The school district just simply spends taxpayer dollars on these trips.  No need for fundraising if you can just collect taxes from everyone and spend it as you see fit.

 

In the meantime, the Boy Scouts have to go out and fundraise - even for a "much leaner and meaner outdoor leadership and adventure experience".  They can't just tax entire towns to pay for this. 

 

How do you propose that the BSA become leaner and meaner?  What is the lesson they should be learning?  What can they do to lower the costs of Scouting?  How can they compete with a school district that can collect taxes?

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I think this is an unfair comparison - your keys words here are "Funded by school district".  Let me make that even clearer - funded by taxpayers.  This puts the school district at an unfair advantage, wouldn't you say?  The school district just simply spends taxpayer dollars on these trips.  No need for fundraising if you can just collect taxes from everyone and spend it as you see fit.

 

In the meantime, the Boy Scouts have to go out and fundraise - even for a "much leaner and meaner outdoor leadership and adventure experience".  They can't just tax entire towns to pay for this. 

 

How do you propose that the BSA become leaner and meaner?  What is the lesson they should be learning?  What can they do to lower the costs of Scouting?  How can they compete with a school district that can collect taxes?

 

Semantics. Sure the taxpayer pays. Here the school district decides if there is a band, chess club, outdoor club and "funds" accordingly, the taxpayer has no say.  But look at that funding, is it less or more per person than what scout families are paying. It is lower. If the schools decided participants pay their own way, the costs would be upfront and still less. And unlike Scouts, activities would be within their financial means!!!!

 

Anyway,look at what our competitors are doing.

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As it stands right now I would need to make quite a few changes in order to accommodate the gals.  I'll need more adult trained leaders and right now I have a committee that can't even recruit and train well enough for what we have. Units will need to have far more adults step up.  In Cubs, that's not a big deal, but with "Scouts" it will mean more involvement with adults when there's really too much in troops the way it is now.

 

Why would you have to do a single thing to accommodate girls? Did you say you were a member of the Chartering Org previously and I missed it?

 

You appear to keep arguing your position as if the decision was to fully incorporate coed Troops.

 

Troops will still be single-gendered. You are neither required to change based on this decision nor are you required to accept girls based on this decision.

Those COs that want to accept girls into scouts will have the responsibility of recruiting volunteers for the new all-girl troop.

 

Boys and Girls will not be competing at all within Troops for leadership positions.

 

Boy Scout volunteers that don't want to work with girls won't have to.

 

https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/BSA_Family-Entry-Fact-Sheet-1.pdf

 

So much of the opposition to this change seems to be rooted in the incorrect perception that next year boys are going to be losing out to girls. They will be two different programs.

 

 

[Theory and practice are not the same thing but I am going to accept what they say it will be and how it will function until I see evidence otherwise.]

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As a parent, the middle-school and high school coed outdoor clubs that I have known have had few adults involved. Two or three outdoorsy manly or amazonly advisors and none of them were student parents. 

 

My $0.02

 

My experience has been that school Outdoor Education programs and camping clubs are often supervised by History and Foreign Language teachers, not exactly the stereotypical types you describe.

 

Most schools ask teachers to supervise at least one activity. The PE teachers coach sports. Science teachers do Science Fair. Music and Art teachers do performances and plays. Math and English teachers do academic bowls. This kinda leaves the Social Studies department to do Outdoor Education. 

 

I agree that school based activities tend to have fewer adults (and far fewer parents) involved than in scouting. Perhaps that is why they are gaining in popularity. I find that somewhat ironic considering that scouting is supposed to be more boy led than the school programs.

Edited by David CO

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Why would you have to do a single thing to accommodate girls? Did you say you were a member of the Chartering Org previously and I missed it?

 

You appear to keep arguing your position as if the decision was to fully incorporate coed Troops.

 

Troops will still be single-gendered. You are neither required to change based on this decision nor are you required to accept girls based on this decision.

Those COs that want to accept girls into scouts will have the responsibility of recruiting volunteers for the new all-girl troop.

 

Boys and Girls will not be competing at all within Troops for leadership positions.

 

Boy Scout volunteers that don't want to work with girls won't have to.

 

https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/BSA_Family-Entry-Fact-Sheet-1.pdf

 

So much of the opposition to this change seems to be rooted in the incorrect perception that next year boys are going to be losing out to girls. They will be two different programs.

 

 

[Theory and practice are not the same thing but I am going to accept what they say it will be and how it will function until I see evidence otherwise.]

 

It's coming. 

 

http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/29428-official-news-release-girls-as-youth-members-all-programs/?p=465669

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I am amazed if some of you have a school district paying for ANYTHING!

 

That's the name on the checks. :)

 

My experience has been that school Outdoor Education programs and camping clubs are often supervised by History and Foreign Language teachers, not exactly the stereotypical types you describe.

 

Most schools ask teachers to supervise at least one activity. The PE teachers coach sports. Science teachers do Science Fair. Music and Art teachers do performances and plays. Math and English teachers do academic bowls. This kinda leaves the Social Studies department to do Outdoor Education. 

 

I agree that school based activities tend to have fewer adults (and far fewer parents) involved than in scouting. I find that somewhat ironic considering that scouting is supposed to be more boy led than the school programs.

 

Maybe larger schools here? With clubs and teams here, teachers follow their interests, e.g., the AP Physics teacher mentors the debating club.

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I am amazed if some of you have a school district paying for ANYTHING!

 

There are grants available. It doesn't usually come out of the regular budget.

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I think this is an unfair comparison - your keys words here are "Funded by school district".  Let me make that even clearer - funded by taxpayers.  This puts the school district at an unfair advantage, wouldn't you say?  The school district just simply spends taxpayer dollars on these trips.  No need for fundraising if you can just collect taxes from everyone and spend it as you see fit.

 

In the meantime, the Boy Scouts have to go out and fundraise - even for a "much leaner and meaner outdoor leadership and adventure experience".  They can't just tax entire towns to pay for this. 

 

How do you propose that the BSA become leaner and meaner?  What is the lesson they should be learning?  What can they do to lower the costs of Scouting?  How can they compete with a school district that can collect taxes?

 

As a former school board member, I have to respond to the idea that a school district "can just collect taxes from everyone and spend it as you see fit." I can only speak from my experience in one school district in one state, but I can't imagine that my school district is unique.  In New Jersey, there are caps on increases in taxes (which result in limitations on spending.)  About 70% of the annual school budget is salaries and benefits, which are negotiated, and then there are fixed costs such as insurance, utilities, etc.  This does not leave a lot of room for sports and clubs.  About five years ago my district adopted an "activity fee" that the students have to pay to participate in sports and clubs.  It only accounts for about 10% of the combined cost of the activities, but it is something.  Every extracurricular activity involves some sort of fundraising to pay for what the school district doesn't.  And then there are some things that are completely on the parents (and fundraising) - when my son's robotics team went to the national championship in Atlanta, the cost of air fare, hotel etc. was paid for by the families, with some subsidy from fundraising. So the idea that the school district is simply going to pay for everything without any contribution from the families, or any fundraising, does not square with my experience.

 

Added note:  And when a new club is started, it usually has to be self-funding, and the faculty adviser is a volunteer, for at least the first couple of years.  I remember a big battle over funding the then-new ice hockey team.  I would say it was probably 4 or 5 years before the school district funded that. 

Edited by NJCubScouter
  • Upvote 3

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As a current school board trustee, the idea that the taxpayer has no say is also incorrect. As an elected trustee, their voice is carried through mine. Second, all budgets are voted upon by the community... the only budget anyone gets to vote on, and thirdly the community gets a direct voice by participating in the community forums, and committees which put the budget together. When it comes to school taxes and budget, the taxpayer has a greater voice than they do compared to just about every other governmental agency.

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That doesn't state what you think it does.

 

Even if what you infer turns out to be correct, that "similar=same," then, as you quoted in the other thread:

 

It will be up to local Cub Scout Packs, parents and chartered partners to choose...

 

 

Nothing in any way suggests that this decision is compulsory. COs and Troops are not required to change.

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That doesn't state what you think it does.

 

Even if what you infer turns out to be correct, that "similar=same," then, as you quoted in the other thread:

 

 

Nothing in any way suggests that this decision is compulsory. COs and Troops are not required to change.

 

By placing no hard fast rule against co-ed Troops, there is blatant lying going on... I was told point blank by execs both in my Council as well as CSE, "NO CO-ED IN BOY SCOUTS".  

 

So now you the hinting at a local option at the 11-18 level... which allows for pressure to exerted... give it 5 years, all Troops will be co-ed.  if this is not evident, it's a beautiful dream I'd love to get in on. 

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