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qwazse

Will you poach our crew's women?

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I'm not too sure about Venturing. On the one hand, I am afraid BSA4G is going to kill Venturing because what few girls are interested will move over to troops to work on advancement. Then again, the few girls I have seen in our crew over the years were not interested in Venturing advancement at all.

I am happy at least the age for Venturing was not lowered. The whole point has been for older boys and girls to do things without younger kids around. No 16-20 year old is going to want to be on the trail with an 11 or 12 year old. And besides, the crew couldn't go to Philmont, shoot pistols, etc. with 12 year olds, unless BSA changed that rule...and  there is no way National would lower the age for high adventure.

 

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I love the concept of Venturing.  Honestly though, I'd be okay with it going away.  As a movement, Scouting in America just doesn't seem to know what go do with it.

If it goes, I'd like to see a focus on improving the Boy Scout program for the 15-18 year olds.  The elements are all there, but far too many troop see their older boys get bored by the same thing year after year.

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You can’t be 11 or 12 or 13 and go to Philmont anyway. Crews follow the same rules and troops do now. If Venturing was coed but younger it would operate just like troops do today. There would be some events or things 12 year olds can’t do just like troops today. 

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How about redesigning venturing into a young adult program?  Overlap it with college ages.  Overlap it with college service fraternities.  Put certain boundaries on it (no drinking, etc).  It's about service and adventure.  

I often think about this as we had multiple scouts age out and become 18-20.  They hang around in a pseudo fashion.  They just don't have the time and commitment to become a fully trained and committed ASM, but they are not really a youth either.  It would be nice to have a program to serve them.  And, I'd be okay calling it Scouting Young Adults.  Gotta check the acronym though.    SYA?  A too close to CYA.  :)   Also sounds like something Patty Hearst would join.

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13 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

How about redesigning venturing into a young adult program?  Overlap it with college ages.  Overlap it with college service fraternities.  Put certain boundaries on it (no drinking, etc).  It's about service and adventure.  

I often think about this as we had multiple scouts age out and become 18-20.  They hang around in a pseudo fashion.  They just don't have the time and commitment to become a fully trained and committed ASM, but they are not really a youth either.  It would be nice to have a program to serve them.  And, I'd be okay calling it Scouting Young Adults.  Gotta check the acronym though.    SYA?  A too close to CYA.  :)   Also sounds like something Patty Hearst would join.

This is a decent idea, Fred. Many of the guys and gals in my son's crew are older high school and college. Our crew is mostly like a high adventure club. It would be odd having folks 14-24 in Venturing, so maybe we change it to 16-23 or so? Maybe Juniors in HS to Seniors in college (not older than 23 or 24). Maybe it's just over 18.

Interesting idea.

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4 hours ago, fred johnson said:

How about redesigning venturing into a young adult program?  Overlap it with college ages.  Overlap it with college service fraternities.  Put certain boundaries on it (no drinking, etc).  It's about service and adventure.  

I often think about this as we had multiple scouts age out and become 18-20.  They hang around in a pseudo fashion.  They just don't have the time and commitment to become a fully trained and committed ASM, but they are not really a youth either.  It would be nice to have a program to serve them.  And, I'd be okay calling it Scouting Young Adults.  Gotta check the acronym though.    SYA?  A too close to CYA.  :)   Also sounds like something Patty Hearst would join.

Or keep the 14-21 age and make Boy Scouts 11-14 with a simple focus on ST21; move SLE and merit badges in to Venturing.

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5 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Or keep the 14-21 age and make Boy Scouts 11-14 with a simple focus on ST21; move SLE and merit badges in to Venturing.

I would feel like 11-14 is too short of time. 

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12 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I would feel like 11-14 is too short of time. 

So, you kinda like being the "old guy" in your troop?

I did, son #2 did. Son #1; not so much.

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Limiting the troop program to 14 will drive the program to a Webelos III formate. 14 to 15 is the average age and maturity boys are ready to take on real responsibility. It is also the best age for role modeling to young scouts. Without the older scouts, it’s an adult run program not much different from Webelos. And it doesn’t do the scout any good to get pushed to the bottom of another program when he is ready to lead.

Venturing is most successful when used as an adventure program, not the “next step” of the scouting program order.

Barry

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4 hours ago, qwazse said:

So, you kinda like being the "old guy" in your troop?

I did, son #2 did. Son #1; not so much.

I just feel like it wouldn’t be useful to youth. There would only be a limited time to get a leadership position as a Boy Scout. Then, you would have to spend another 50 dollars on a brand new uniform only 2-3 years in, and then more money on a new book, etc. I feel like it wouldn’t work out well for low income families. 

To answer your statement, I don’t mind being the old one in the group but I’m starting to get burnt out as a SPL (2nd year), I haven’t been as enthusiasm as I use to, and honestly my quality of work is going down in Scouts.  I am done in about 2-3 months so it’ll be all good. 

Edited by ItsBrian
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On 2/10/2018 at 10:43 AM, Eagledad said:

Limiting the troop program to 14 will drive the program to a Webelos III formate. 14 to 15 is the average age and maturity boys are ready to take on real responsibility. It is also the best age for role modeling to young scouts. Without the older scouts, it’s an adult run program not much different from Webelos. And it doesn’t do the scout any good to get pushed to the bottom of another program when he is ready to lead.

Venturing is most successful when used as an adventure program, not the “next step” of the scouting program order.

Barry

If Star, Life and Eagle were moved into the 14-21 age group, exclusively, it's a simple matter to make the required leadership positions for Eagle focus on the Troop.  SPL, ASPL,  Troop Guides, Instructors all could come from the Venturing program, providing service to the Troop Program.  The middle-school aged scouts would see the responsibility being handled by the HS aged scouts and the HS aged scouts would have the adventure program separate from the troop.  Feels like the best of both worlds to me.

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16 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

If Star, Life and Eagle were moved into the 14-21 age group, exclusively, it's a simple matter to make the required leadership positions for Eagle focus on the Troop.  SPL, ASPL,  Troop Guides, Instructors all could come from the Venturing program, providing service to the Troop Program.  The middle-school aged scouts would see the responsibility being handled by the HS aged scouts and the HS aged scouts would have the adventure program separate from the troop.  Feels like the best of both worlds to me.

Troops and Crews have been trying some form of your idea for 50 years. However, the most successful crews are typically not tied to a troop program. The most successful Troops typically understand the value and importance of older scout role modeling for younger scout development.

A few Troop/Crews are successful, but the general idea doesn't work because the combined program format is too complicated for continuing through future generations of leaders. Success requires a visionary who understands how to develop young scouts from the actions of older scouts setting the example. And the two programs clash somewhat between the "Patrol Method" Method hierarchy of leadership and the Crew Method hierarchy of leadership. The adult who understands how to make both programs successful is rare.

The name "Venturing" itself seems to lure many adults away from the First Class Skills part of the program for a more adventure part of the program. Those programs tend to fail within five years, by the way.

Without the right adult (qwazse or MattR) to understand the complexity of the two programs, the quality of both suffer and typically the Venturing Crew folds. I've seen the scenario repeat itself many times.

Why not MattR's idea, it worked for us. Our troop had the largest group of 14 to 17 older scouts in the Council. We were also considered the most Boy Run Patrol Method program in the council as well.

Barry

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Right now, there is a lot of overlap between the Troop and the Crew.  We have three senior guys from the Troop in the Crew and potentially, three guys from another Troop joining.

I expect some of the Crew will join the to be created girl Troop but will continue with the Crew.  I have good ideas who will make good PLs and I know that they will make sure the Troop is youth-led.

Within our CO's BSA Unites, we have had to redefine the role of the Crew.  Originally, it was "Boy Scouting for Girls" but the Crew turned it into something different.  This is a group of friends (some friends before starting the Crew, some becoming friends after) that like to do outdoor activities together.  To me that sounds like the ultimate definition of a Patrol.  The draw for Venturing is going to be those that want the next level of adventure and the camaraderie of a co-ed group of friends.  

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