How to market for the BSA

[blw2 433]

the sports thing is interesting to me....

I'm not a sports guy at all.  I'm the guy who's eyes gloss over as soon as someone talks about the game....  I find it rather pointless to watch others playing a game.  The games to me are pointless, and it drives me nuts the importance that so many folks give it.  I also hate that so many of the so called role models in that area are overpaid uneducated and downright trashy people

but the thing I have observed over the years.....

many exceptions of course, including the over testosteroned and rude sports folks.... but I'd have to say that a good many of sporty folks I have observed over the years seem to be perhaps socially better adjusted than non sporty types.  Sporty kids are often polite and well mannered, confident, and have larger groups of friends

I'd have to guess that just as with scouts, there is a huge variable in that some coaches are much better than others, but I'd guess that most coaches try in their own way to teach character...it just may not be such a consistently documented "part" of the program.....they aren't all singing form the same hymn book like we in scouting are.

[RememberSchiff 3672]

In marketing to the Boy Scout age group, what of Sea Scouts and STEM Scouts?

[MattR 2659]

Bsa needs a message for visitors and a message for current parents and a message for leaders. They are all just more detail of the what and how. Prepared for life is nice but maybe "helping your kids grow up, faster" might hit a nerve. Beyond that there is need for more and more detail of how it works.

 

I think there is a difference with sports since scouts will have more opportunities to make decisions. I still like sports though. They compliment each other.

[David CO 1783]

the sports thing is interesting to me....

I'm not a sports guy at all.  I'm the guy who's eyes gloss over as soon as someone talks about the game....  I find it rather pointless to watch others playing a game.  The games to me are pointless, and it drives me nuts the importance that so many folks give it.  I also hate that so many of the so called role models in that area are overpaid uneducated and downright trashy people

but the thing I have observed over the years.....

many exceptions of course, including the over testosteroned and rude sports folks.... but I'd have to say that a good many of sporty folks I have observed over the years seem to be perhaps socially better adjusted than non sporty types.  Sporty kids are often polite and well mannered, confident, and have larger groups of friends

I'd have to guess that just as with scouts, there is a huge variable in that some coaches are much better than others, but I'd guess that most coaches try in their own way to teach character...it just may not be such a consistently documented "part" of the program.....they aren't all singing form the same hymn book like we in scouting are.

 

Actually, the documentation part of scouting is the part I enjoy least.  Scouting has become too bookish.  Too clerical.  Too bureaucratic. I want to spend my time outdoors working with the kids.

 

There are thousands of books and plenty of seminars and college courses devoted to coaching youth sports. There is no shortage of opportunities for young coaches to study and learn how to coach.  I don't think individual youth sports programs need to duplicate this stuff.  It it has already been done, and it is readily available to anyone who wants it.

 

I agree that there is less paperwork and book work in sports than in scouting.  I think the coaches and players like it better that way.  I certainly do.

Edited September 23, 2017 by David CO

[Back Pack 431]

Little League Baseball runs in-services on that exact topic. LLB tells coaches that character development takes place mostly at practices, not at games. I totally agree.

 

If you only attend the games, like most parents, you will never see all the hard work that takes place behind the scenes. The heavy lifting takes place at practice.

 

By the way, how about the umpires? Would you include all the middle school and high school umpires who work for Little League Baseball when you consider leadership and character?

I was involved in baseball and soccer growing. Band too. Neither baseball or soccer had any program for character building either in rec or select. My character was built on my own by winning, losing or getting injured. I had coaches that helped build my character but that was by happenstance and not a program designed to do so. Band actually had a leadership program and a written code of conduct and citizenship. Ex marine was the band director so charter building was built in to his program. But that's likely an exception so I don't count band as being a program that universally builds character.

 

I had many coaches. I remember a lot of yelling, screaming and degrading behavior by the coaches I observed. One trip to any local field on game day confirms nothing has changed in ten years. Discussions with my father confirms it hasn't changed since he was a kid. If I go to any camporee I don't see the same thing by a similar proportion of adult leaders.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Back Pack

[David CO 1783]

There are a few bad apples in every barrel, but I haven't seen the kind of widespread misconduct you describe.  

 

I have heard the same sort of nonsense about scout leaders.  There is a lot of talk out there about scouters being a bunch of child molesters or something.  It's not true.  I have always found scouters to be a great bunch of guys.  A little nerdy, perhaps, but good group of guys.

 

The few times I have encountered loudmouthed coaches, they have been inexperienced guys who thought, like you, that this is how coaches are expected to behave.  They were acting out a stereotype they had somehow gotten into their heads.  A friendly conversation was usually enough to correct the problem.

 

I have been to literally hundreds of training sessions for coaches.  I have never once heard a supervisor tell coaches that they should yell at or berate their players.  I can't even imagine a park district supervisor, YMCA director, or school athletic director doing so.  

 

I really don't think spreading a false narrative about sports programs and the good men who coach in them is a good strategy for promoting scouting.  

[Eagledad 2779]

False narrative? I'm confident that most parents with kids in sports have at least one horror story of over the top coaches. I have some scary stories of coaches physically fighting and a couple of stories of police getting involved. TheYMCA here requires ALL parents take a morning course of controlling their behavior and then signing a contract before their kids can participate in any sport. I imagine the coaches have more extensive training.

 

I have one funny story of a very concerned scout parent. I was one of several parents who reported him for his behavior when several of us pulled our 6 years old son's from his team. He was asked to take the assistant coach role but he instead withdrew from the team because most of the parents attended his (our) church. Short story is he was very uncomfortable how I would treat his son as his SM. Of course that's not my style and both his son's earned their Eagle and aged out in the troop.

 

But little of that really contributes to how sports compares to scouting in developing character. During my years as a scout leader, I also coached for 12 years. Since I was obsessed with character development in scouting, I also tried to carry that goal to my coaching and found it very challenging. I Used to tell our scouting parents that the troop is the real world experience scaled down to a boys size. That is because the Scouts makes hundreds of decisions that have direct consequences on the will of the group. I found that while we can apply specific experiences of sports to real world, on the whole the outcome of character growth is very controlled and fragile.

 

Of coarse we could argue that team members also make choices for the good of the team. But the difference, at least for me is that errors are not welcome in a sporting event because it can cause a bad outcome for the whole team. The scout program, if done correctly, is a safe place for wrong decisions because they are opportunities for growth.

 

Same result happens in sports, errors can encourage changes in habits. But errors can have have such a dramatic result to the team that they are not welcome and many times brutal to the player.

 

I personally believe that sports give our youth positive experience of character growth that prepares them better in their adult life. But I don't believe any parent or player joins a team to develop character. And result of that is that very few, if any, adults become coaches in little league to develop their players character.

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

I have been involved with youth programs for almost 50 years now.  Only Scouts focuses a bit of their program on leadership and character development.  It is the only thing that keeps me volunteering for Scouts.  As that emphasis wanes, so will my involvement.

[David CO 1783]

I've been watching all of these NFL players refusing to stand for the National Anthem.  They're not helping me make my point.

[Stosh 3452]

I've been watching all of these NFL players refusing to stand for the National Anthem.  They're not helping me make my point.

 

Some how celebrity status allows them to think they are experts on anything and everything.  At least Scouting teaches the boys the kind of character and leadership to actually DO SOMETHING about making necessary improvements in the lives of other people.  A Real Scout will walk the walk.  Okay, you've taken a knee during the Anthem, you have my attention, now what?  Nothing?  The appropriate follow-through leaves a lot to be desired.  The real changers of society are those that work to make it happen, not just protest and complain.  Scouts are taught to work to make it happen.  That's the part of scouting that keeps me going.

[blw2 433]

Actually, the documentation part of scouting is the part I enjoy least.  Scouting has become too bookish.  Too clerical.  Too bureaucratic. I want to spend my time outdoors working with the kids.

 

There are thousands of books and plenty of seminars and college courses devoted to coaching youth sports. There is no shortage of opportunities for young coaches to study and learn how to coach.  I don't think individual youth sports programs need to duplicate this stuff.  It it has already been done, and it is readily available to anyone who wants it.

 

I agree that there is less paperwork and book work in sports than in scouting.  I think the coaches and players like it better that way.  I certainly do.

That's not the "documented" I meant....

I agree with you.

 

What I was getting at is that with scouts, the "documented program" that we are all trying to follow focuses on it....the game outline for scouting is doing this stuff with character in mind

but while sports coaches might make their own efforts....leagues might even... but I don't think that the focus or reason for playing the game is character.  They are there to play the game first, the game is the focus, not character building

but again with scouting, the documented program is all designed around character building...

 

I agree with you that so much of the program has leaned towards paperwork and book work too much...

[SSScout 1615]

 1)   Why I do not go to many (if any)  pro sports games:   It is intended as entertainment FIRST, not necessarily  sport (anybody out there remember the Coliseum?  oops... ) . I like the college games better, and High School when I am able.    Why would I want to root for someone who is paid more in an hour than I am in a year?

2)  Why should we promote "Recruitment Nights"?   It  almost sounds as if the Scout Leaders are paid by commission for each boy/girl they sign up.  How can we not make it sound like that?  Should not the idea (read all above) be not the numbers (Our Pack/Troop signed up MORE BOYS than yours ! )  but the reasons and the quality,  Yes, we need to make our opportunity more visible and available.

3)  ""All Scouting is Local""   if the County Cable Channel can broadcast the high school football game, why not the Camporee?  Lots of competition there, yes?  Anyone have a high schooler in your Troop with video skills and savvy,  make up a 15 minute show about a campout or hike.  Get those recently mentioned blind triplets on the air.  Good news sells papers, too (if anyone would buy papers. You know what I mean).  

4)  Star Spangled Banner singing does not excite me. People kneeling can mean prayer (for our nation?) , it can mean "listen to the words, do not merely mouth them".  It is a patriotic song, and patriotism CANNOT be enforced, it must be voluntary or it means little.  How does one get folks to voluntarily be Patriotic? By example, by opportunity. Scout service projects can be the best kind of patriotic example.  Citizenship?  Stewardship of the land, conservation,  respect for  people and property,  tolerance and understanding of "the other".  Did I hear something about a Scout Promise? Promise to do .. what..?

5)  Hiking, camping, Being Prepared for when the lights don't go on, being able to swim and save those who can't,  tie a shoe lace that won't come undone.   Has anyone out there ever been pointed out as "the Boy Scout" in a situation, no matter how mundane, and been EXPECTED to know what to do?   it's happened to me more than once.  

 6)   How to get the youngest of parents to understand that THAT'S what we are about?   It ain't the glitzy uniform (that's just a part), it ain't the  goody two shoes reputation (how does that apply?),  it's not the impossibility of "being like that " (not everyone can be expected to be an Eagle Scout).  If the parent has a Scout experience, that's a start, if it was a GOOD Scout experience.   Many  ,(most?)  of the discussions here are about (to be polite)  less than good Scout experiences, yes?  My two step sons have grown into fine men, each different, tho they are twins(!), but because of the experience their bio dad had in Scouts, would have nothing to do with Scouting with me. Their younger days were tough, to be polite about it.   My youngest, bio son, Joe, started out in Cubs and went all the way to Eagle, and he is doing fine. In discussion, he will admit Scouting helped him a lot thru his ADD stuff.  How to get those young parents convinced they , too, can provide a "good" Scout experience for their boy (and dare I say it, girl)?

7)  There is a spirit out there that wants , not uniformity, but CONFORMITY.  Do what I want you to do, what I say is the truth, regardless . For us to encourage our youth to think for themselves, to be able TO DO  for themselves, is , to some , heresy.  The New England Town Meeting is to be copied, not forgotten as a historic relic.  The idea of the Patrol as a gang of friends,,  the idea of the Patrol Leaders Council as group to consensually decide things is NOT what some would like to see in our youth.  Why?   Isn't that what our nation was founded on?  Scoutmaster. Committee Chairman: These are adults, but when the youth become adults ("We will decide what assisted living facility you go into, dad !"), what is the example they will follow?  

 

Enough venting/wondering/thinking out loud....

 

See you on the trail.

Edited September 25, 2017 by SSScout

[David CO 1783]

That's not the "documented" I meant....

I agree with you.

 

What I was getting at is that with scouts, the "documented program" that we are all trying to follow focuses on it....the game outline for scouting is doing this stuff with character in mind

but while sports coaches might make their own efforts....leagues might even... but I don't think that the focus or reason for playing the game is character.  They are there to play the game first, the game is the focus, not character building

but again with scouting, the documented program is all designed around character building...

 

I agree with you that so much of the program has leaned towards paperwork and book work too much...

 

When the YMCA invented basketball, they actually did start with the idea of character building.  They deliberately designed the game to advance the greater goals they had in mind.  Same with volleyball.

 

I am a graduate of a YMCA college.  I studied YMCA history and the history of sports.  Yes, building character in young men is exactly what they had in mind when they first created these games.

 

You will be pleased to know that this historical fact is well documented.  Look it up.

 

Baden-Powell was a big fan of YMCA.  He personally knew the founder of the YMCA. He took a lot of his ideas from YMCA, and he had YMCA people involved in the early days of scouting.  

 

The phrase, a game with a purpose, actually started at YMCA.  

 

I firmly believe in the idea of a game with a purpose.  Scouting is a game with a purpose, but it is not the only game with a purpose. 

[fred johnson 936]

The reductions in sex, drinking and drug use are far more likely to be due to better access to healthcare and the millions of dollars spent on PSA campaigns and school programs aimed specifically at those issues. 

 

Yeah, I gotta laugh at that one.  No kid changes their behavior because of better health care or better PSA campaigns.  There has been concerted pushes to reduce dangerous behavior for decades, if not centuries.  

 

Adolescents have drives and needs.  Every kid wants to find their own value and get the next rush whether adrenaline or drugs or dating.  I've watched for 10 to 15 years now an extreme online culture where kids get their high by their online gaming or other online tools, etc.  And it's not just a few kids.  It's a large large portion of the kids.  Many would rather stay home playing a game on a Saturday night instead of exercising or chasing girls or working to get money so they can chase girls or be out on the town ... , it's the direct immediate cause.  I've had three boys now older 16 or older.  It's what I've seen.  Working, dating and going to a party is hard work relative to their immediate easy fun of playing Halo 14.  

Edited September 25, 2017 by fred johnson

[blw2 433]

When the YMCA invented basketball, they actually did start with the idea of character building.  They deliberately designed the game to advance the greater goals they had in mind.  Same with volleyball.

 

I am a graduate of a YMCA college.  I studied YMCA history and the history of sports.  Yes, building character in young men is exactly what they had in mind when they first created these games.

 

You will be pleased to know that this historical fact is well documented.  Look it up.

 

Baden-Powell was a big fan of YMCA.  He personally knew the founder of the YMCA. He took a lot of his ideas from YMCA, and he had YMCA people involved in the early days of scouting.  

 

The phrase, a game with a purpose, actually started at YMCA.  

 

I firmly believe in the idea of a game with a purpose.  Scouting is a game with a purpose, but it is not the only game with a purpose. 

yeah, I don't doubt that much.... seem plausible to me.... that the YMCA, or organizations like it, would use sports with that purpose.

My kids participated one year in an Upward sports Basketball league at a local Baptist Church.  They were all about "fun and purpose"  I was very impressed with that operation....

 

But are you saying that YMCA actually invented these sports games basketball, baseball, football, volleyball, etc... all for the "purpose"

That seems like a bit more of a stretch to me, but hey if you say so....

 

Other organizations certainly invent games for their purpose....

AWANA is an example that comes to mind of a group that has it's own gamebook all for a Christian purpose.  I used to work with a fellow that was very active in that for his church.  This was when I was volunteering with the pack, and I spent quite a lot of time comparing notes with him....

 

But, taking things to the modern / current mainstream interpretation.... from my perspective anyway, sports is about the game first, at least most of the time