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Hawkwin

One of the reasons I support my Girl Scout joining the Boy Scouts

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There's a subtle, but important difference between how GSUSA and BSA.

 

 

 

Totally correct.

 

My wife ran into one of the parents of the new troop last night - someone I had personally called to request information (she never returned my call - I had to email the district person in charge), and her comment to my wife was, "I am glad your daughter was accepted into the new troop." The clear implication was that she could have been turned away if the troop did not approve. Upon further discussion, my wife got the clear impression that the other parents were emailed and asked if they wanted her before we were extended an invite. Makes me think that my daughter could have easily been discriminated against for any number of reasons that would never have been disclosed.

 

As much as I want her to be active in GS, that is just a real ugly process and one wide open for abuse.

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Totally correct.

 

My wife ran into one of the parents of the new troop last night - someone I had personally called to request information (she never returned my call - I had to email the district person in charge), and her comment to my wife was, "I am glad your daughter was accepted into the new troop." The clear implication was that she could have been turned away if the troop did not approve. Upon further discussion, my wife got the clear impression that the other parents were emailed and asked if they wanted her before we were extended an invite. Makes me think that my daughter could have easily been discriminated against for any number of reasons that would never have been disclosed.

 

As much as I want her to be active in GS, that is just a real ugly process and one wide open for abuse.

 

While it is rarely done (well, my troop did it recently), boys can be rejected from joining a troop. We had problems with the family in the past. They changed troops, their boys made a mess in the new troop and wanted to come back to us. We didn't accept them back (we didn't need their drama and negativity).  

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While it is rarely done (well, my troop did it recently), boys can be rejected from joining a troop. We had problems with the family in the past. They changed troops, their boys made a mess in the new troop and wanted to come back to us. We didn't accept them back (we didn't need their drama and negativity).  

 

I think that's different.  That is a decision based on actual experience with specific Scouts.  Based on stories that have been told in this forum, and my own observations back in my daughters' GS days, sometimes girls are not accepted into a troop because they are not part of the "in crowd", or not really friends with the existing troop members, do not go to the "right" school, etc.  Of course the "official reason" is usually "we're full", but quite often that's not the real reason.  I am not painting all GS leaders with this brush, but there are some.

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There's a positive side to why they use the structure they do. If you look at my daughter's group, the friendships are certainly stronger that in my son's troop. Parent involvement is higher too.

 

I'm balance, I think the BSA has the better approach - particularly around ease of joining and continuity of program. I'd wager that's why the BSA is larger.

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We lived the same hassle with GS until we found a multi age troop 30 miles from our house when my daughter entered 6th grade (Cadettes). Things were so bad around our area we went to Canada and joined Girl Guides for 10 years. We are blessed to be in border city and the Canadian units were a mere 10 miles away (plus border crossing time).  My daughter liked the GGC program so much that we would go there even after she joined the GSUSA troop that she just aged out of. In a lot of ways she had the best of 2 programs. Down side was double the cookies to sell, Canada sets the number you have to sell or give them money equal to that amount.

 

I don't know what I'd have done with her if we couldn't have gone to Canada. We were the wrong school, wrong address, wrong everything in our area. The adults in charge, troop/district/council levels, made no bones about it, we were the wrong everything. We found the GS troop we finally got into through a BS friend whose daughter was in it. This GS troop has been going for over 20 years and never refused a girl that I know of. Head leader's oldest daughter just had her first child and is 31. Youngest daughter is now 25. And the leader is showing no signs of closing the troop or retiring. But she has a strong support system of other adults. The troop runs more like a BSA troop than a GSUSA troop. We have a treasurer, advancement chair, membership/communications chair, and we all work with the girls in different capacities. 

 

I agree GSUSA numbers would skyrocket if they followed a BSA model of membership for troops. But then the Moms would be able to exclude the kid from the wrong school, wrong street, wrong color, wrong whatever. Heaven forbid they let their daughters experience the real world. BSA doesn't have the concession on helicopter moms.

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So, you want to decrease the quality of my sons' experience in scouting because GSA failed your daughter? Really, I am so tired of "girls in boy scouting" I could puke. And if you think "those people" are going to stop with just having girls join you're crazy. I'm out. It's been good knowing y'all.

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So, you want to decrease the quality of my sons' experience in scouting because GSA failed your daughter? Really, I am so tired of "girls in boy scouting" I could puke. And if you think "those people" are going to stop with just having girls join you're crazy. I'm out. It's been good knowing y'all.

Just what do you think, specifically, would be made worse with the inclusion of girls? The mission of BSA is "youth" not boys, after all.

 

My son is also a Boy Scout. I do not feel his experience would be made worse by the inclusion of girls.

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@@Hawkwin ... I think it depends on any changes made to BSA to attract female members. My troop 25 years ago had a few girls go with us to BWCA and they were like one of the guys. We acted pretty much the same and we canoed over 100 miles with them. my family just hit 4 generations of eagles and opinions vary by generation. My father is against it... reasoning isn't clear but best summed up that while a couple of girls may be ok opening it up would add many others that would destroy the program... and that it's nice to have a boys only club. I'm supportive if BSa doesn't change the program as mentioned above. My nephews are fully supportive, they are in venturing with girls. Note that they won't tell grandpa this as he will get pissed. It be interesting to see a poll based on age of the parent.. I wonder if the acceptance of girls increases with decreasing age. Not that means it's the right call... perhaps the older generations are more aware of what could be lost. One final point... if the change is made you can't go back.

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@@Hawkwin ... I think it depends on any changes made to BSA to attract female members. My troop 25 years ago had a few girls go with us to BWCA and they were like one of the guys. We acted pretty much the same and we canoed over 100 miles with them. my family just hit 4 generations of eagles and opinions vary by generation. My father is against it... reasoning isn't clear but best summed up that while a couple of girls may be ok opening it up would add many others that would destroy the program... and that it's nice to have a boys only club. I'm supportive if BSa doesn't change the program as mentioned above. My nephews are fully supportive, they are in venturing with girls. Note that they won't tell grandpa this as he will get pissed. It be interesting to see a poll based on age of the parent.. I wonder if the acceptance of girls increases with decreasing age. Not that means it's the right call... perhaps the older generations are more aware of what could be lost. One final point... if the change is made you can't go back.

Of course the devil is always in the details but as you indicated with your first hand experience that it can be successfully done. Venturing has demonstrated that it can be successfully done. 90%+ of the rest of the world's scouting organizations have proven that it came be done.

 

I don't see, and you don't offer any details, as to how it would be "destroyed" by allowing more. That simply does not logically follow. As long as the same standards are maintained, like they were for the first female Army Rangers, then we should be just fine.

 

As a member of that older generation, we are just less open to change. We are more wedded to tradition than younger generations, which is why your nephews likely have no problem with it but your grandfather does. Few of us can point to actual first hand experience as none of have had girls in cub or boy scouts before. Nearly all of us are operating from assumptions.

 

And the fear of the unknown drives a lot of it.

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Just what do you think, specifically, would be made worse with the inclusion of girls? The mission of BSA is "youth" not boys, after all.

My son is also a Boy Scout. I do not feel his experience would be made worse by the inclusion of girls.

The male mystique! Here's an oldy-but-goody (except for the mispelled topic): http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/9491-the-male-mystic/

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That's not what the congressional charter says.

 

 

The congressional charter also doesn't include Cub Scouts, or co-ed Venturing yet we have such. My assumption is that we are not bound by any specific wording of that document. From the Bylaws:

 

 

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/bsa_charter_and_bylaws.pdf

 

 

 

ARTICLE VII. YOUTH MEMBERSHIP

 

Section 1.

 

Those eligible to participate in programs designed for youth and

 

young adults shall collectively be known as “youth program participants.â€

 

Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all

 

who meet the membership requirements. Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting,

 

and Varsity Scouting are for boys. Venturing is for young men and

 

young women. Those youth program participants who are at least

 

18 years of age and eligible to participate in programs designed for

 

youth shall be referred to as “adult program participants.â€

 

 

 

Section 2.

 

Both membership in Scouting and advancement and achievement

 

of leadership in Scouting units are open to all boys and,

 

where authorized, young women, without regard to race or ethnic

 

background, and advancement and achievement of leadership in

 

Scouting is based entirely upon individual merit.

 

 

 

---------------

 

 

 

Seems like all it would take is a change in the Bylaws to change the gender requirements.

 

 

 

 

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...

Seems like all it would take is a change in the Bylaws to change the gender requirements.

Well, that, and scouters like @@Stosh and @@Ankylus to be okay with it.

 

As important as our daughters are, seasoned scouters of large and small units across the nation are equally, if not more, relevant to the success of the BSA. If they don't buy in in overwhelming numbers, we must go for decades without the human resources BSA needs for success.

 

That's why venturing is floundering. Potential leaders, in spite of BSA's pitches, in spite of a cadre well trained young-adult females, do not see it worth their well to set aside life in unisex troops/packs to make outdoor programs for coed older youth flourish.

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As important as our daughters are, seasoned scouters of large and small units across the nation are equally, if not more, relevant to the success of the BSA. If they don't buy in in overwhelming numbers, we must go for decades without the human resources BSA needs for success.

 

The BSA seems to be taking the approach of "If you build it, they will come."  Well, it worked in a fantasy film, so what could go wrong?  :)

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If Venturing is floundering I wonder if BSA makes Venturing girl only 11 - 18 and then add on some sort of young adult coed group for 18 - 26. Venturing would then be open to earn ranks similar to Boy Scouts. Cub Scouts would essentially be coed but you would separate at crossover.

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