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LDS leaving BSA?

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13 minutes ago, gblotter said:

BSA was perhaps a refuge in the past when they could say "our values are your values - let us join together for promoting common good". Now BSA says "our values have changed and are no longer your values, but we will still allow you to persist in your old ways of thinking and remain in the organization". No, that is not what I would call a refuge. Refuge is found where values are mutually supported and promoted - not merely tolerated. That refuge is now within our family and within our church.

My impression with the BSA is, "We have much in common  and we will work  together for the common good, respect one another, and not allow our differences to divide us."

And when our scouts become adults, hopefully they will restore those values to the USA.

My $0.02,

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To add to @gblotter comments, there is an ever increasing number of home-schooled youth in our society because of the attitudes, new norrms, and questionable teaching practices of "today's society".  If one looks at the Lone Cub Scout and Lone Boy Scout programs, it remains today because:

5.0.3.0 Lone Scouting

Boys who do not have access to traditional Scouting units can become Lone Cub Scouts and Lone Boy Scouts. In the following or similar circumstances, they may find this an appropriate option:

  1. Home-schooled where parents do not want them in a youth group
  2. U.S. citizens living abroad
  3. Exchange students away from the United States
  4. Disability or communicable illness that prevents meeting attendance
  5. Rural communities far from a unit
  6. Conflicts with a job, night school, or boarding school
  7. Families who frequently travel or live on a boat, etc.
  8. Living arrangements with parents in different communities
  9. Environments where getting to meetings may put the Scout in danger

Pay particular attention to #1.  This also speaks to the "local option" where the parents, not the CO's are the decision makers.

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16 hours ago, gblotter said:

Yes - that is certainly what liberals would like us all to think, i.e. that their values are now America's values and anyone who thinks differently is an outlier. I assure you that large swaths of this country do not subscribe to that line of thought.

I don't think outlier but perhaps minority - but there is not anything necessarily wrong with being in the minority. Heck, we are all minorities when we consider the percentage that participate in BSA. That being stated, it seems rather clear that support for gay rights and gender equity and equality are not just supported by liberals. It may not be long from now when even the majority of "traditional conservatives" support such (there has been a 10% increase in support in just the last two years).

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

2017: Support for gay marriage is now at 65% with 40% Republicans (41% Conservatives up from 30% just two years ago) , 73% Democrats (85% Liberals), and 70% of Independents (70% Moderates) in support.

 

16 hours ago, gblotter said:

We have had a number of family discussions to help our children understand that governmental laws do not define the morals of our family. Most recently this lesson was repeated when talking about legalized marijuana. One of the things that makes us special and different is that our values hold steady in the face of crumbling societal morality. We had hoped that BSA would not succumb to the crumbling. We are aware of the strength required to hold these positions nowadays.

Again, I sympathize and support your position and such is why I support the decision of BSA to not force change on you. That being stated, BSA has to be flexible enough to serve an America that is different than you. If, for example, gay rights are supported by 70% of the families in the northeast (a completely made up percentage), and the religious faiths of those families also support such, then it would stand to reason that BSA should conform. The same can be said for gender.

BSA was perhaps a refuge in the past when they could say "our values are your values - let us join together for promoting common good". Now BSA says "our values have changed and are no longer your values, but we will still allow you to persist in your old ways of thinking and remain in the organization". No, that is not what I would call a refuge. Refuge is found where values are mutually supported and promoted - not merely tolerated. That refuge is now within our family and within our church.

Again, when many religions are saying that the "common good" is to not discriminate against gays, then how can BSA claim that we should? BSA has to be a refuge to them too, doesn't it? It can't tell those scouts in those faiths that their beliefs are less important than yours can they? Shouldn't we support them and make a refuge for them and their deeply held beliefs just as much as we do for you? We shouldn't hold up your religious beliefs as being more important that others should we?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT

 

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14 hours ago, Stosh said:

 

5.0.3.0 Lone Scouting

 

Last I read (about 2 years ago), only about a third of all councils support Lone Scouts. If you are in a council area that does not support it, then you must join a Pack or Troop to be a scout.

If that has changed, please let me know.

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... If, for example, gay rights are supported by 70% of the families in the northeast (a completely made up percentage), and the religious faiths of those families also support such, then it would stand to reason that BSA should conform ...

@Hawkwin, dissenters didn't go away. They merely voted (I would say in a blind rage, in spite of their protestations to the contrary) and will continue to do so in ways that confound the narrative of an evolving America. The establishment removed the privilege position of licensed heterosexual monogamous unions. Those who felt that to be a significant watering down of their status withdrew support.

It is one thing to be asked not to throw stones. It's another to be asked to kiss the ring. They may not slap the hand. But they will withdrawal and occupy themselves elsewhere.

BSA's promotion of co-ed programs (like Explorers, STEM Scouts, and Venturing) simply have not sold to LDS. It was generous of them to try retrofitting them to their needs for these past 5 decades. Any BSA4G program will either have to suit the needs of their Young Women or be dismissed as one more dog-and-pony show that they'll have no part of.

So, the question becomes, who is BSA's new market? And, are they buying?

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3 hours ago, qwazse said:

It is one thing to be asked not to throw stones. It's another to be asked to kiss the ring. They may not slap the hand. But they will withdrawal and occupy themselves elsewhere.

I am sorry but I don't understand your metaphor.

Also, who withdrew their support of what? You quoted my comment about how many religious faiths now accept non-hetero relationships. Are you suggesting that the members of those faiths "withdrew their support?" Certainly is possible and I would have no idea on that point.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

So, the question becomes, who is BSA's new market? And, are they buying?

Obviously too soon to say if they are buying but I know at least a small part of their new market, and it is me and my GS daughter and every other younger sibling girl of my son's Patrol. There are three of us that have younger daughters (two of which are currently in GS) of Cub Scout and soon to be Boy Scout age. I have spoken to the other two fathers and all three of us, and our daughters, are looking forward to joining BSA. No idea as of yet if our CO (or another local CO) will be supporting such.

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Ok, I've read the thread. Gotta say I am confused now more than ever. Our LDS leaders here locally are saying their 14 year-olds are "out". They noted that many will stick around and get their Eagle and then drop, and all LDS over-14 units would not recharter. All 11-13 year olds were welcome to stay in their units, and that there was an attempt to get them Eagle "as fast as possible". I took this to mean before they turned 14, but who knows.

Are my local LDS friends on the same page with the church? Or are they being cowboys?

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1 minute ago, Col. Flagg said:

Ok, I've read the thread. Gotta say I am confused now more than ever. Our LDS leaders here locally are saying their 14 year-olds are "out". They noted that many will stick around and get their Eagle and then drop, and all LDS over-14 units would not recharter. All 11-13 year olds were welcome to stay in their units, and that there was an attempt to get them Eagle "as fast as possible". I took this to mean before they turned 14, but who knows.

Are my local LDS friends on the same page with the church? Or are they being cowboys?

Everything I have seen from National is that the boys +14 years old in crews and teams have been moved back into troops. LDS still charters troops--it's just crews and teams being dropped.

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29 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

There are three of us that have younger daughters (two of which are currently in GS) of Cub Scout and soon to be Boy Scout age. I have spoken to the other two fathers and all three of us, and our daughters, are looking forward to joining BSA. No idea as of yet if our CO (or another local CO) will be supporting such.

Well, you better find some moms too. If National follows the Venturing model, registered and trained female leaders will be required.

 

"Adult Supervision/Coed Activities

Male and female adult leaders must be present for all overnight coed Scouting trips and outings, even those including parent and child. Both male and female adult leaders must be 21 years of age or older, and one must be a registered member of the BSA."

Edited by an_old_DC

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23 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Well, you better find some moms too

Already have those. My son's previous Den leader is an active volunteer active in the Boy Scout troop as well as the mom of a fellow scout with an older daughter (no idea of her interest in Boy Scouts). Our Pack Committee Chair (female) also is an active volunteer in the current Troop.

I estimate that we have at least six active female adult leaders in our current Troop. Though, I have no idea how interested any of them would be in taking on addition duties in leading a girls Troop. I certainly want to avoid cannibalizing the existing Troop of leaders.

My troop is likely very atypical. We have roughly 100 scouts with many adult leaders, both female and male. The only shortage we sometimes experience is additional drivers for camping and events.

 

All that being stated, I have no idea yet even if our CO would sponsor a girls Troop so our excitement for such is perhaps unwarranted.

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55 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Everything I have seen from National is that the boys +14 years old in crews and teams have been moved back into troops.

For 2018, maybe.  The Q&A at https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/questions-answers-changes-young-men-program specifically says they are making their payment to BSA for 2018, so no financial hit this year and older boys get the change to Eagle.  The article at the link also says that scouting meets the needs of boys 8 to 13, multiple times.  

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1 hour ago, an_old_DC said:

Everything I have seen from National is that the boys +14 years old in crews and teams have been moved back into troops. LDS still charters troops--it's just crews and teams being dropped.

Locally this is correct with one exception: Boys over 14 are being given the option of going to troops. Few are from what I hear. Why? As leaders tell it 1) LDS boys are reluctant to join non-LDS units, and 2) Some guys are more in to other things than what non-LDS units do as Scouts. I asked a friend what that meant and he was pretty frank. He said his crew basically worked on stuff to get guys to Eagle and didn't do much "real Scouting" (his words). He also said the LDS guys in his old crew "weren't really in to Scouting" anymore.

I was wondering what the uptake is in other areas. It seems most LDS guys here are not going to "other units" as might be expected.

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1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

For 2018, maybe.  The Q&A at https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/questions-answers-changes-young-men-program specifically says they are making their payment to BSA for 2018, so no financial hit this year and older boys get the change to Eagle.  The article at the link also says that scouting meets the needs of boys 8 to 13, multiple times.  

This is correct; the Church paid a lump sum for 2018 so that all boys 14 - 18 who would have been registered into the old Varsity and Venturing units are instead going to be automatically registered back into their Troops for 2018. This is supposed to be Church-wide, so if any units are not complying (such as those mentioned by @Col. Flagg), it's either because they don't understand how this is supposed to work or simply that they don't even know that this is the Church's intent. In my area, all boys are simply re-registering as Troop members, with the Varsity and Venturing Teams and Crews being cancelled at the end of this year (with some exceptions; there are a few units that have good programs that are deciding to continue operating through private means).

After 2018, all Church Packs and Troops will continue to operate as they always have. But unlike before, when boys would have been automatically moved up into Varsity and then Venturing units when they aged 14 and 16 respectively (and most likely into Teams and Crews that were more or less inert due to lack of program understanding), young men will now have the option of simply staying registered in the Troop as long as they wish to continue Scouting. 

It really is simply - before, the Church ran the Varsity and Venturing programs for all boys 14+, but most Church leaders didn't have any experience with those programs, and so they basically did their own thing once the boys reached the older age groups. Now, the Church won't bother running programs that the local leaders couldn't run correctly anyway, and so it will simply stick with the Boy Scout Troops, which they have been able to run well, and instead of kicking boys up a program once they reach 14, boys will have the option of remaining in the Troop for as long as they wish to continue Scouting, with a separate, Church-organized activity program operating for boys who decide they don't want to continue with Scouting after they are 14. 

 

Edited by The Latin Scot
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5 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Again, I sympathize and support your position and such is why I support the decision of BSA to not force change on you. That being stated, BSA has to be flexible enough to serve an America that is different than you.

@Hawkwin  You have been very patient in making your arguments. Your kindness shows through. However, this invigorating back-and-forth has only highlighted with greater clarity how much BSA has changed in a very short time.

I go back to my original triggering statement: "I did not walk away from Scouting - I have stayed the same. Rather, Scouting walked away from me."

Scouting used to be my parenting partner because it shared my values and reinforced what my children learn at home and at church. Now it is an organization with different values that merely tolerates what my children learn at home and at church. Gone is the BSA marketing slogan "Timeless Values". BSA no longer takes a leadership position with values - it just follows where society is going, with its finger on the pulse of popular opinion and yes - surveys (perhaps even the same surveys you referenced). Because of this, I hope you can understand my waning enthusiasm and commitment to the movement.

Without question, this is hard for me. As a boy, Scouting made a huge difference in my life and saved me from being a social outcast. My experience as a youth has has motivated me to give back as an adult (more than nine years as Scoutmaster). My own son has had a phenomenal Scouting experience. With 50+ merit badges, he is just now finishing his Eagle Scout Service project. This past summer he attended two different BSA camps in addition to National Jamboree (we barely saw him at all during the summer). In 2018 he will be attending Camp Emerald Bay on Catalina Island and Camp Meriwether in Oregon. He drinks Scouting from a fire hose and makes my Scoutmaster buttons burst with pride. But with all these changes, it feels like my son is catching the last train out of the station (and even he realizes that 2018 will be a triumphant last hurrah). So many adventures, so many memories - so much fun. It has been an incredible ride.

With these recent decisions, BSA has obviously decided to move in a different direction. They want a different kind of Scouting that appeals to different kinds of families and different kinds of Scouts and different kinds of Scouters. As I said before, I am a traditionalist cut from old cloth. This new Scouting is not for me. The time is coming soon when I will step aside and make room for the changes BSA wants. I will do so with sadness but not bitterness.

TimelessValues.jpg.29052e8f1b5679a26175909fa79fa608.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

Locally this is correct with one exception: Boys over 14 are being given the option of going to troops. Few are from what I hear. Why? As leaders tell it 1) LDS boys are reluctant to join non-LDS units, and 2) Some guys are more in to other things than what non-LDS units do as Scouts. I asked a friend what that meant and he was pretty frank. He said his crew basically worked on stuff to get guys to Eagle and didn't do much "real Scouting" (his words). He also said the LDS guys in his old crew "weren't really in to Scouting" anymore.

I was wondering what the uptake is in other areas. It seems most LDS guys here are not going to "other units" as might be expected.

Col., I meant the boys in crews and teams are being moved back into the LDS troops. That way they can finish work toward Eagle and still go on high adventure trips, if they and the troop choose.

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