A letter from my SE

[EmberMike 144]

We have moms who camp with their families. But, taking a troop out in the big woods? That's men's work.

 

I know plenty of moms who would do far better in the woods than a lot of dads. 

 

It's sad that anyone would say that anything is "men's work" in this day and age, where women prove over and over again that they are just as capable as men. I suppose we should tell all of the women in the desert that war is "men's work", or the women firefighters who prove they can do the job as well as their male co-workers that they should had up their turnouts. 

[Eagledad 2777]

I know plenty of moms who would do far better in the woods than a lot of dads. 

 

It's sad that anyone would say that anything is "men's work" in this day and age, where women prove over and over again that they are just as capable as men. I suppose we should tell all of the women in the desert that war is "men's work", or the women firefighters who prove they can do the job as well as their male co-workers that they should had up their turnouts. 

LOL, I remember a few years ago on this forum another liberal scouter expressing her frustration that members here were incapable of pragmatic discussions. I guess she was right. 

 

Barry

[EmberMike 144]

LOL, I remember a few years ago on this forum another liberal scouter expressing her frustration that members here were incapable of pragmatic discussions. I guess she was right. 

 

Barry

 

She certainly was if the consensus around here is that only men lead a group of kids into the woods. 

[Eagledad 2777]

She certainly was if the consensus around here is that only men lead a group of kids into the woods. 

Nope, she was frustrated of posters who interrupted discussions of pragmatic world dialogue with speeches of idealism.  

 

Idealism is the vision. Experience is a pragmatic measurement for correcting course back to the vision.

 

Preaching idealism to the chore is not pragmatic, it is an emotional outburst.

 

She was a college level teacher. Her point is that preaching without the balance of pragmatism forces the vision farther away. 

 

Barry

[qwazse 4342]

I know plenty of moms who would do far better in the woods than a lot of dads. 

 

It's sad that anyone would say that anything is "men's work" in this day and age, where women prove over and over again that they are just as capable as men. I suppose we should tell all of the women in the desert that war is "men's work", or the women firefighters who prove they can do the job as well as their male co-workers that they should had up their turnouts. 

EM, you misjudge our people. 

 

Those are the moms who I have the darnedest time convincing to come camping with us!

They are the ones saying this. Not us guys. Moms pay good money to live in this community (or commute their scouts here if they can't afford it), none of them are "kept" women. Not by a long shot. Several are veterans. In spite of press to the contrary, it still feels like a steel town, and Rosie the Riveter never really left the shop floor. Whoever in the couple finds the job "rolls the steel." Nevertheless, these moms want their boys (and girls, if they are asking for co-ed) in the program because they believe in our male role models -- however misplaced that faith may be.

 

It may make you sad. It might inconvenience me. However, they are quite happy about it.

 

P.S. - Just in case any of my daughter's friends from @@Eagledad's neck of the woods catch wind that I'm writing this. I got nothing against "kept" women. It's a noble and truly liberating way to live. It's just not how we roll on the boundary between coastal and heartland.

[Col. Flagg 909]

It's sad that anyone would say that anything is "men's work" in this day and age, where women prove over and over again that they are just as capable as men

You mean Donner was wrong???  

 

[EmberMike 144]

EM, you misjudge our people. 

 

Those are the moms who I have the darnedest time convincing to come camping with us!

 

My apologies, I read that statement to be your words, not the words of moms in your group. 

[qwazse 4342]

My apologies, I read that statement to be your words, not the words of moms in your group.

No worries. If it confused you, it likely did others. So, clarifying will hopefully help.

[RememberSchiff 3662]

IMO, it seems counter-productive to schedule "Making Scouting Accessible for Families" discussions during peak family summer vacation time - end of July, early August.

[ianwilkins 366]

Just so you know, in the UK, you know, where membership numbers are

 

Nevertheless, these moms want their boys (and girls, if they are asking for co-ed) in the program because they believe in our male role models -- however misplaced that faith may be.

 

 

Over the other side of the pond, I've probably said, there is no requirement for female leadership, it's a nice to have. Parents trust their young men and women to me and my fellow leaders because their kids want to be there (mostly) and they trust us. It doesn't seem to matter that we're guys. Campouts, well, we had one the other week where there were 23 Explorers, 9 young women, 14 young men, and three male leaders. It's not a problem. If one of the girls have a delicate first aid problem, they'd come to us and we'd deal with it, if they needed sanitary supplies, they'd probably ask around the other girls first, then ask us. 

 

Scout leaders are practical people. There's not much that's insurmountable. Not going to say it's going to be easy, and when organisations and committees get involved, it always seems to end up more complicated than it needs to be, but if you end up going down the co-ed road, what do you say when a boy is fearful of trying something new? I suspect it's not "walk away son, it's not worth it".

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Unfortunately, on this side of the pond,  if female youth are present, a female Scouter is required. So this policy is mandated by our national org. That is why there is a concern about not having enough female Scouters to do camping.

 

And in all honesty I think it's good policy. Adults can be accused of things, and even if proven untrue, it destroys the individual's reputation. We had one extremely dedicated female Scouter get expelled  from the organization, and her reputation ruined because a "Scout" lied. Long story short, she caught the "Scout" after curfew spying into the ladies' showers while she was in there. When confronted by the powers that be, to get out of trouble, he lied and said she made a proposition to him. She was kicked out, and a legal investigation occurred. She was exonerated, but her membership stayed revoked and her reputation still remained "questionable."

 

And the need for female Scouters IS a concern, at least IMHO. With the exception of the summer camp crews/ ships, I have been affiliated with 1 Sea Scout Ship and and 3 crews.  Ship had an active female Sea Scouter. 2 crews elected to be all-male.  The crew that was coed had challenges finding a female over 21. When it was a husband and wife as adviser and associate advisor, no problem. Once they left, the crew was desperate for a female Scouter to go camping. They eventually folded as a result of not having enough female Scouters.

[qwazse 4342]

Unfortunately, on this side of the pond,  if female youth are present, a female Scouter is required. .... Adults can be accused of things, ...

 

@@ianwilkins, the litigious nature of our populace (foisted upon us by the criminal behavior of a few) is indeed crippling.

[Eagledad 2777]

Just so you know, in the UK, you know, where membership numbers are

 

 

Over the other side of the pond, I've probably said, there is no requirement for female leadership, it's a nice to have. Parents trust their young men and women to me and my fellow leaders because their kids want to be there (mostly) and they trust us. It doesn't seem to matter that we're guys. Campouts, well, we had one the other week where there were 23 Explorers, 9 young women, 14 young men, and three male leaders. It's not a problem. If one of the girls have a delicate first aid problem, they'd come to us and we'd deal with it, if they needed sanitary supplies, they'd probably ask around the other girls first, then ask us. 

 

Scout leaders are practical people. There's not much that's insurmountable. Not going to say it's going to be easy, and when organisations and committees get involved, it always seems to end up more complicated than it needs to be, but if you end up going down the co-ed road, what do you say when a boy is fearful of trying something new? I suspect it's not "walk away son, it's not worth it".

The BSA has for a very long time been a target rich environment for predators. The outdoor arena along with a patrol method theme are tempting to those looking for quiet one-on-one opportunities. I've been told personal stories that go back to the 1950's. And we had some recent local situations as well. Now throw females into the mix along with cultural diversity issues, and you have a nervous population trying to push past it's fears. 

 

My personal experience example as far as women in scouting are concerned goes back to the cubs. When I was working to increase our Webelos crossover from 50% to a goal of 75%, I found the biggest part of the challenge was keeping the moms in the cub program. Moms had no trouble running the Wolf/Bear den meetings because they are basically arts and crafts. But when they grabbed the Webelos handbook and saw how much of the activity themes were outdoor skills and camping, they bulked. Add to that most of the Bear leaders where burning out, and you have a mass exodus of  adults for the Webelos program.

 

I learned that the Webelos age part of the program have always had this issue, but the scouting community expected dads to take over the dens during their sons Webelos experience. That worked fine for a lot of years. I'm not sure when, but the dads started backing away leaving the moms stuck. Huge drop outs after Webelos is the result.

 

The average mom doesn't have any outdoor experience and isn't really interested in learning to tie knots. Yes, the BSA offers training to help Webelos leaders build confidence in those areas, but that requires an a couple days of learning to tie knots along with sleeping in the woods overnight. Are you starting to see the problem?

 

Yes, there are some mothers out there that are attracted to the adventure side of the scouting program, but "Not Very Many". My wonderful beautiful Mrs. Barry didn't mind camping with my also lovely daughter so long as the Girls Scouts camp provided Air-conditioned cabins and cooked meals in an Air-conditioned mess hall. She didn't even like calling it a mess hall. Cafeteria is more to her liking. 

 

One of the reasons I'm against coed scouts is because my experience with several female Scoutmasters hasn't given me much hope that they will push Patrol Method or an Outdoor program. We got along great and I enjoyed working with all scoutmasters. But the reality is that most adults don't push past their fears or uncomfortableness (if that is a word) of situations. Adults without patrol method or outdoor experience rarely develop the troop program much past a Webelos type of environment. The program is pretty adult run at the very least. That is real world, not hypothetical apprehension. I was one asked to advise a new troop of five female leaders with 40 new scouts. That troop after a year wouldn't even rate as a good Webelos program. 

 

Bringing in coed youth will bring in more coed adult leaders and dilute the experience base. The program will naturally get farther away from outdoors and patrol method. Not only have I watched this happen, the engineer in me says it's just logical. 

 

Barry

Edited July 19, 2017 by Eagledad

[Cambridgeskip 658]

Unfortunately, on this side of the pond,  if female youth are present, a female Scouter is required. So this policy is mandated by our national org. That is why there is a concern about not having enough female Scouters to do camping.

 

And in all honesty I think it's good policy. Adults can be accused of things, and even if proven untrue, it destroys the individual's reputation. We had one extremely dedicated female Scouter get expelled  from the organization, and her reputation ruined because a "Scout" lied. Long story short, she caught the "Scout" after curfew spying into the ladies' showers while she was in there. When confronted by the powers that be, to get out of trouble, he lied and said she made a proposition to him. She was kicked out, and a legal investigation occurred. She was exonerated, but her membership stayed revoked and her reputation still remained "questionable."

 

And the need for female Scouters IS a concern, at least IMHO. With the exception of the summer camp crews/ ships, I have been affiliated with 1 Sea Scout Ship and and 3 crews.  Ship had an active female Sea Scouter. 2 crews elected to be all-male.  The crew that was coed had challenges finding a female over 21. When it was a husband and wife as adviser and associate advisor, no problem. Once they left, the crew was desperate for a female Scouter to go camping. They eventually folded as a result of not having enough female Scouters.

 

But surely there can be such accusations whether or not there are female leaders present? And indeed if it is just an all male event as well? I don't really see the difference in the levels of risk on that side of things.

From experience here the adult leaders (men and women) where the great outdoors is not there thing rarely do anything other than beavers or cubs. Those leaders who are really up for a bit of the great outdoors are spread across all sections. You might find that if girls were admitted on mass to all age ranges that you'll find a lot more women than you expect getting involved.

[MattR 2659]

Someone should start a poll: Biggest concern is -girls?, -too many moms?, -lack of moms? I lean towards the last.

 

Eagle94-a1, Would it be easier to get moms involved in crews if they were coming up with their daughters? There's a long learning curve for adults. Eagledad says it's 3 years. What parent is going to get involved when their daughter turns 14?

 

I know some moms of scouts that were girls scouts as kids and did a lot of outdoor stuff, didn't have any daughters and never felt at home in the BSA. Some of them made it work but it was a struggle.

 

I know this won't change the worry about getting sued but as long as there are dads with daughters around, nobody will do stupid stuff. How about if there are no moms then at least one girl's dad must be there. Call him the designated mom.

 

Eagledad, I believe your concern with moms not being interested. But isn't that just the canary in the coal mine? There are also fewer dads that are interested in the outdoors or letting their kids learn things the hard way. Girls or not, the program issue is still there.

 

I think the BSA has been selling scouts the wrong way to parents. All they say is volunteer or else. I joined because I wanted to have fun with my son. Yes, I had outdoor experience but I have learned so much more as an adult. The best adults are those that act like kids so why not push that model. Have a training program that models what the youth go through. The current adult training is pathetic. It's mostly classroom. It pays lip service to outdoor skills. It's one and done. Where have we seen these problems before?