A letter from my SE

[DuctTape 1230]

There's nothing stopping anyone from going to the scout store and buying any patch or rank badge, except for eagle.

 

To be honest, I'd be interested in a modified venturing. Ranks up to first class, 11-21 (but split into two age ranges) and more emphasis on outdoors and leadership/teamwork and less on advancement. Call it retro scouts.

There is also nothing stopping anyone, or group from buying a bshb and other books and just doing their own "scouting" much like the first scouts did which prompted BP to write his scouting for boys.

[EmberMike 144]

...as I read all the responses, I forget about the boys and kind of like the ideas of providing a place for girls...

 

This was my original (and still is my current) motivation in wanting to see co-ed scouting happen. The constant demand for girls to have a bigger place in the BSA seems to indicate a lack of this kind of program elsewhere. I would love to see the BSA become the place that fulfills that demand. 

 

After watching the video, however, I don't get the feeling that providing a place for girls is really a high priority for National. Their motivations seems to be largely fixated on alleviating the difficulties and strains faced by adults being pulled in too many directions by the hectic demands of modern parenting. That as a means of making scouting more accessible to families and (hopefully) stopping the membership erosion, that seems to be the focus. From what CSE was saying, anyway. 

 

Being a proponent of co-ed scouting, I still get what I've been hoping for if co-ed moves forward in this way and based on these membership goals. It just would have been a little sweeter to see it happen with more of an emphasis on all of the good this could do for girls, not just for membership numbers and organizational growth charts. 

 

BSA isn't presently in a place where membership is so dire that they needed to make a move based solely on the goal of increasing membership. We had another 10 years probably before we got to that point, if declines continued as they have been. They easily could have positioned this as more of a move to grow the program, extend more scouting opportunities to girls, enrich the experience in a more diverse population of scouts and scouters. Instead they just made it blatantly clear that this is a business decision, and not much more. 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Being a proponent of co-ed scouting, I still get what I've been hoping for if co-ed moves forward in this way and based on these membership goals. It just would have been a little sweeter to see it happen with more of an emphasis on all of the good this could do for girls, not just for membership numbers and organizational growth charts. 

 

Well, I am not a proponent of coed Scouting (specifically meaning boys and girls together in the same troop; I would be fine with a parallel program) but I agree with you.  This is being presented more as "what's good for the organization" rather than emphasizing the good it can do for girls.  And as I said before, they also seem to think that if they open up the program to girls, they will also get brothers of those girls who are in the BSA.  I don't think they really WANT to add girls to packs, and definitely not to troops.  Mr. Surbaugh made that very clear in his presentation.  They are making what they think is a pragmatic (there's that word again) decision.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

There's nothing stopping anyone from going to the scout store and buying any patch or rank badge, except for eagle.

 

Well, in our Scout Shop if you go in and try to buy ANY rank badge, you will get a lecture about how you need an advancement report and how they'll sell you the badges this time, but not next time, and they take your name.  I don't know what happens if you do it a second time, that is, whether they actually turn you away or give you the badges and another lecture.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Yes in video, the "Make Scouting More Accessible" argument and examples stopped at Cub Scouts. After that,  a separate and maybe equal argument was applied, i.e., a partner or parallel (in-house) program, family accessibility was not a concern. 

 

I responded to part of this same post earlier, but I just noticed this part.  I agree, when he was talking about Cub Scouting he seemed more enthusiastic and talked about this opportunity to get more families involved.  But when he "crossed over" to the older age group, suddenly he was no longer talking about an opportunity, now he was talking about a problem.  Okay, now we've got all these 10.5-11 year old girls who have been Cub Scouts for 4+ or 5+ years, what do we do with them?  As I said before, I think National knows what it is going to do at the Cub Scout level, but they seem genuinely perplexed about what to do after that.

[MattR 2659]

Doing my diligence. Here's the survey. You can read the leaves any way you want. Questions in bold, answers not copied so well because I couldn't just copy and paste. An ellipses means there were 5 or so answers in a range.

 

---------

 

Did you watch the video which discusses the proposed Family Program?

 

Thinking about today's families, how relevant and appropriate do you believe the Cub Scout program materials and activities are for girls age 6 to 10?

(not at all … completely, don't know)

-----

The BSA is thinking about including Cub Scout program options from which Chartered Organizations can choose :

• • Packs for boys only 

  • Packs for girls only

  • Packs that include boy dens and girl dens that meet together for the opening and closing, but separately for den activities.

 

How do you feel about the BSA offering these options?

(pick an answer)

 

If the BSA were to make the Cub Scout program available to girls while still maintaining the single-gender nature of the program, which of the following approaches do you think the organization should pursue for girls age 11 to 18?

-partner with a separate org for a program that serves girls 11-18

-Develop a BSA single-gender program for girls ages 11-18

 

Thinking about today's families, how relevant and appropriate do you believe the Boy Scout program materials and activities are for girls age 11 to 18?

Not at all … completely, don't know

 

To what extent do you agree or disagree that the BSA should have a single-gender program for girls 11 to 18 years of age that uses the same requirements and activities as the Boy Scout program?

Strongly agree … strongly disagree

 

If the BSA were to offer a separate, single-gender Boy Scout-equivalent program for girls, should the members be eligible to earn the highest rank of Eagle if they have completed the same requirements?

Definitely yes … definitely not

 

Currently, the Order of the Arrow is not available to young women in the BSA.  If girls are members and have completed the same eligibility requirements as boys, should they be allowed to be members of the Order of the Arrow?

Same as previous

 

If the girls program described in the video moves forward, what are the possible positive effects you foresee for your council?

Open

 

If the girls program described in the video moves forward, what are the possible negative effects you foresee for your council?

Open

 

Are you a Volunteer or a Professional? (Select one.)

 

I am a volunteer at the: (select all that apply)

 

More questions based on previous results

 

What region and council are you in

 

What is your age, sex, OA level

 

Are you an Eagle

[HashTagScouts 437]

There's nothing stopping anyone from going to the scout store and buying any patch or rank badge, except for eagle.

 

To be honest, I'd be interested in a modified venturing. Ranks up to first class, 11-21 (but split into two age ranges) and more emphasis on outdoors and leadership/teamwork and less on advancement. Call it retro scouts.

 

Not entirely true- you need to have a valid Advancement Report to purchase merit Badges and Rank patches.  It's often subverted, but there is supposed to be that valid check and balance from the local Council.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

If the BSA were to make the Cub Scout program available to girls while still maintaining the single-gender nature of the program, which of the following approaches do you think the organization should pursue for girls age 11 to 18?

-partner with a separate org for a program that serves girls 11-18

-Develop a BSA single-gender program for girls ages 11-18

 

(question omitted)

 

To what extent do you agree or disagree that the BSA should have a single-gender program for girls 11 to 18 years of age that uses the same requirements and activities as the Boy Scout program?

Strongly agree … strongly disagree

 

If the BSA were to offer a separate, single-gender Boy Scout-equivalent program for girls, should the members be eligible to earn the highest rank of Eagle if they have completed the same requirements?

Definitely yes … definitely not

 

Currently, the Order of the Arrow is not available to young women in the BSA.  If girls are members and have completed the same eligibility requirements as boys, should they be allowed to be members of the Order of the Arrow?

Same as previous

 

 

 

It looks to me like coed troops are off the table.  If there is a program for girls 11-17 it is going to be in separate girls-only units.  I got the same impression from the CSE's presentation.

[Chisos 118]

It looks to me like coed troops are off the table.  If there is a program for girls 11-17 it is going to be in separate girls-only units.  I got the same impression from the CSE's presentation.

 

I don't see how that is going to be tenable in practice.  On paper, sure.  But if the premise is "accessibility" then having the boys do one thing while the girls do something else isn't going to cut it.  They might be separate troops on paper, but it's going to be co-ed in practice.

[EmberMike 144]

It looks to me like coed troops are off the table.  If there is a program for girls 11-17 it is going to be in separate girls-only units.  I got the same impression from the CSE's presentation.

 

The viability of girl-only units will depend on if there are enough girls to make a unit. This is going to be a tough thing to pull off for many groups. Even with the pack being a feeder into these new girl-only troops, it will likely take years to get enough girls involved to build a successful unit. 

 

Separation keeps the anti-coed folks a little happier but it gives these new girl troops an uphill battle to get established, recruit, and grow their own troop. Not to mention getting enough new leaders involved. 

[desertrat77 1144]

I thought the video and presentation were excellent and both gents were well spoken.

 

I know what the BSA has done for my daughter.  She's at the Jambo as we speak.  Last year she did NYLT and a 50 miler.  Spring she attended Kodiak and had a blast.

 

It hasn't been perfect, admittedly.  There have been a few rough spots in the road as with any endeavor.  But it's been far more positive than negative.  She's become stronger and the BSA has provided her with an avenue for her sense of adventure.  Most of her closest friends are associated with the BSA, male and female.

 

All that to say I don't predict the BSA will be harmed if it becomes fully coed.  Lots of cubs that aren't interested in crossing over to a troop drop out when they can, and find other interests.  I don't see that being any different for either boys or girls.  If, in a couple years, girls are allowed to cross from cubs to a boy scout troop, I predict they will be the very girls that want to be in the troop.  They'll get with the program and contribute. 

 

Will it be the same?  No.  But it never is.

 

As a scout in the '70's, I still remember finding a mid-60's era scout handbook in an old locker.  I was an Eagle, the SPL, in a outdoor-driven troop in Alaska.

 

Then I read that old handbook.  Then I got mad.  Irate, in fact.  I can't use the language to accurately describe just how mad I was as this is a family-oriented forum.  Why?  I felt like I'd been ripped off.  I wanted to be in the BSA of yesteryear!  Not the one I'd grown up in.

 

As I compared my ISP scout handbook to the old one, I found myself longing for a BSA that no longer existed.  It wasn't till many years later that I realized that while the BSA had changed the handbooks and uniforms and requirements, I was nonetheless a lucky beneficiary of traditional scouting.  Because my unit level scouters created the environment where I could have similar experiences as those old scouts back in the day.

 

The recipe for successful scouting hasn't and won't change.  Each unit will chart its own course.  It all takes place at the unit level.  And it always will.  In today's day and age, that's good news.

Edited July 21, 2017 by desertrat77

[HashTagScouts 437]

I don't see how that is going to be tenable in practice.  On paper, sure.  But if the premise is "accessibility" then having the boys do one thing while the girls do something else isn't going to cut it.  They might be separate troops on paper, but it's going to be co-ed in practice.

If there are enough adults who want their daughters involved, then nothing stops them from having the COR charter a female troop and keep it separate on paper, but coed in practice by having both units share meetings and outings.  Whether the BSA is declaring the program is not coed, it will be irrelevant as units will force it to be so.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

We all know that the BSA will change it's policies on this matter at the drop of a hat. And we all know that even having separate female Scout troops, people will not be happy. In fact I think it will make the BSA a larger target in the cross hairs. "Separate, but equal" comes to mind.  And let's not forget,  THERE IS ALREADY A SEPARATE GIRL SCOUT ORGANIZATION IN EXISTENCE ( caps for emphasis, not shouting), and folks are not happy.

[Back Pack 431]

I love continued reference to "today's families". Odd we don't see sports teams (also in big declines) merging leagues and teams.

 

Families will get their kids to the stuff that interests them if they truly want to. Or maybe they could try cutting doe on the huge list of things they sign their kids up for.

[EmberMike 144]

I love continued reference to "today's families". Odd we don't see sports teams (also in big declines) merging leagues and teams.

 

Families will get their kids to the stuff that interests them if they truly want to. Or maybe they could try cutting doe on the huge list of things they sign their kids up for.

 

Fair point. I think the difference is that kids are more drawn to sports that scouting, especially as they get into their teens. Unfortunately scouting may always have to try a lot harder than sports teams to be enticing to the kids and convenient to the parents.