Outside Magazine: Boy Scouts Should Allow Girls

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but for the first time since I've been in scouting, I believe it is time that the volunteers take an accounting of who these people at National are and their real motivation behind the policy changes. Maybe it's time to strategize an organized accounting (resistance). Maybe a trip to Erving is required for a show of opinion by those who give one hour each week.

 

Barry

 

I can't believe it either.  Who ever thought it would be Barry leading the Resistance?  

[Gwaihir 198]

amid all this, and in lieu of BP's resignation, there is a single thing that makes me rethink walking away.   Not to be too much of a nerd, but Kirk's line to Picard in Generations has always stuck with me. 

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there, you can make a difference."

In this instance, being a Scoutmaster/Cubmaster is definitely being the captain of the ship, and that's the one place, where you have a direct and indispensable connection to the boys you are guiding.  You walk, and you take all your knowledge with you and the ones hurt are the boys.  Boys are being left behind in droves in this day and age and the statistics bear that out.  Walking cold turkey without an exist strategy for you or your scouts really doesn't help them.  I hate that National is sacrificing the boys to the gods of inclusion and putting many of us in this spot. 

[qwazse 4342]

... But I am also a realist. If we are forced to go coed, and we are, then we need to do it correctly, otherwise the "sexist" and "bigoted" perception will continue to exist, and numerous packs and troops will ignore national and fully integrate, having a paper unit for the girls.

That ship is sailing ... just like independent patrol camping ... with or without BSA's sanction.

 

Girls will get "on paper" one way or another. (Frankly, a young woman with "completed Eagle Scout requirements, sex notwithstanding, just for fun" on her resume would hold my attention better than many young men with the actual award.)

 

Mike S's stance is simply the worst of all possible worlds -- except the one where extra paperwork is adored.

 

 

... Truthfully, if the answer to everything is always "people are already doing it" then what should those who follow the rules bother following the rules?  Just run your program at your unit the way you want.  Why bother having a standardized program at all.  I'm sure uniforms will be the next to go before long. 

 

@Gwahir's question is valid. The answer boils down to are they doing it for good reasons? Is it activism or answering needs. Then the rest of us rule followers have to suck it up as "older sons" and figure out what works best for "the prodigals."

 

For example, rather than "paralleling" packs and troops, beef up liaisons with Campfire USA and offer parents who would rather run girls and boys through a similar program a way to transfer their unit to that program, run that program as long as they'd like, switch back to a Pack or Troop if the girls drift away. Figure out what accomplishments in one program may count for awards in the other program.

 

That gives whatever Cubmaster or Scoutmaster the freedom to lash hulls to a different ship.

 

And, lean on NESA to extend its recognition to the highest awardees in other programs (venturing would be a good start), and give the kids opportunities to compare notes so they can decide how to make it all better for their kids.

 

OA? That's a tiff between progressive national lodge chiefs and reactionary advisors. I wouldn't even go there. Let them test the waters, and even if the whole organizations goes co-ed, give them the right to say, "Sorry, still no girls allowed."

[EmberMike 144]

amid all this, and in lieu of BP's resignation, there is a single thing that makes me rethink walking away.   Not to be too much of a nerd, but Kirk's line to Picard in Generations has always stuck with me. 

 

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there, you can make a difference."

 

In this instance, being a Scoutmaster/Cubmaster is definitely being the captain of the ship, and that's the one place, where you have a direct and indispensable connection to the boys you are guiding.  You walk, and you take all your knowledge with you and the ones hurt are the boys.  Boys are being left behind in droves in this day and age and the statistics bear that out.  Walking cold turkey without an exist strategy for you or your scouts really doesn't help them.  I hate that National is sacrificing the boys to the gods of inclusion and putting many of us in this spot. 

 

Well said. No matter what anyone's stance is on this or any other issue, you can't do much good if you're not around. 

[Col. Flagg 909]

Well said. No matter what anyone's stance is on this or any other issue, you can't do much good if you're not around.

 

Well you can do yourself good. Surbaugh and his group are essentially going wee down our backs and telling us it's raining. At some point folks are going to say, "Enough! I'm out!"

 

Being lied to by national over and over has been enough to cause some great folks to leave. Can't say that I won't be among them. But I'm close.

[Sentinel947 1205]

The BSA is not handling any of these issues very well. If you are polling members to see what they think and then go in that direction because it's what your members want, fine. 

 

If National thinks they need to lead the BSA off in a "brave" new direction all the time fine... I'm politically inclined to agree with them as part of their newly coveted "Millennial" demographic. 

 

What's not fine is pretending to solicit member feedback and then doing whatever they were planning to do to start with. Just do it then....

 

I think what's important for each of us to consider is why we became Troop leaders in the first place. Most of the forum it was for their kids. For me it was for my friends who were a year or two behind me in high school, and then I got attached to the younger Scouts and the Adults fighting the good fight to provide the troop. With all the changes, are you still able to meet your mission as a BSA Scouter? I believe there was a thread about burn out a few years back and the consensus was "If you aren't enjoying this anymore, if the bad days outnumber the good, maybe it's time to call it done."

 

I'm starting to feel like I've hit mission accomplished. Every boy who was a Scout when I turned 18 is now out of the program. I don't feel as strong a connection to the current crop of kids. Not strong enough to give up an hour and half every week and at least 1 weekend a month. Maybe I'll switch to the Committee, volunteer on the Council or District level where it's less consistently demanding of my time. If this change does come around, I do want to stay and preserve for the Patrol method stuff I've spent the last 5 years building, but that may be a losing battle. At some point the current SM and I have to hand things off to the next generation of parents. 

 

I have no idea what changes are in store for Scouting as a whole or in my troop. I'm but one man, and I can happily say I've made a difference in the lives of young men in my council and they've had a life changing impact on me. I hope one day my sons or daughters can be members in the Scouting movement and get the experiences I enjoyed growing up. 

 

Regardless of who stays and who leaves the BSA due to this change, you're always welcome around this little campfire. I encourage some of our more conservative members to stick it out a little longer with us, both here and in the BSA. Wait until we see some strong changes one way or the other. 

[Rick_in_CA 401]

If National thinks they need to lead the BSA off in a "brave" new direction all the time fine... I'm politically inclined to agree with them as part of their newly coveted "Millennial" demographic. 

 

What's not fine is pretending to solicit member feedback and then doing whatever they were planning to do to start with. Just do it then....

I'm not sure I agree that it's automatically dishonest for an organization to solicit member feedback on a topic that is already decided (though there are dishonest ways of doing that). I can easily image a situation where an organization decides it needs to do action X, and solicits member feedback to learn how much, and what kind of pushback or support for action X there is. They are going to do action X anyway, but the feedback helps them gauge the response, and too address the concerns that the membership brings up. I don't see that as dishonest. Unless they are dishonest while soliciting the feedback (such as lying about how the feedback will be used, etc.).

 

I'm not sure that is what is happening here. I think the BSA has decided that something has to change via girls in scouting, but they haven't decided all the details yet, especially at the boy scout level. I think there is still a debate going on about how to do this at National. I don't think a final decision has been reached. I could be wrong, but I see a lot of assumptions being made that I don't think the facts support (yet).

[Gwaihir 198]

The heinous and glaring sexism on display here.  Why isn't this school  focusing on the family? 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/atlanta-students-surprised-cheers-encouragement-1st-day-school/story?id=49133871&cid=social_fb_abcn

[Gwaihir 198]

Well you can do yourself good. Surbaugh and his group are essentially going wee down our backs and telling us it's raining. At some point folks are going to say, "Enough! I'm out!"

 

Being lied to by national over and over has been enough to cause some great folks to leave. Can't say that I won't be among them. But I'm close.

 

I agree with you.  Every person has their breaking point and I'm close as well.  I was just remarking that that line does stick with me.  

[RememberSchiff 3663]

The heinous and glaring sexism on display here.  Why isn't this school  focusing on the family? 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/atlanta-students-surprised-cheers-encouragement-1st-day-school/story?id=49133871&cid=social_fb_abcn

 

Or diversity? Perhaps they (B.E.S.T. Academy)  have reached their membership (enrollment) goals.

[Col. Flagg 909]

I'm not sure that is what is happening here. I think the BSA has decided that something has to change via girls in scouting, but they haven't decided all the details yet, especially at the boy scout level. I think there is still a debate going on about how to do this at National. I don't think a final decision has been reached. I could be wrong, but I see a lot of assumptions being made that I don't think the facts support (yet).

ROFL. So if Trump wanted to make a policy change and 1) created a secret video that was only shared with who he wants, and 2) surveyed only those people who he wanted, and 3) wrote the survey in such a way that it lead the user to the desired outcome, and 4) pressured anyone who leaked the video or survey to take down the links, you'd be perfectly okay with it? Where's my BS flag?

 

Yes debate is still going on. But you entirely miss the point. BSA is trying to orchestrate the outcome, manufacturer "support" by limiting the scope of the debate and leading those who do respond to their outcome. That's not honest or fair.

 

If we're going to have a debate let it be free and open where ALL members can see the proposal without the pressure and influence of a direction one way or the other. Then BSA can make their decision and will know where their membership stands. But no, BSA wants to manufacture the support for their position and that's just WRONG!!

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

They are also limiting discussion. there is a very set Discussion guide that the folks need need to read verbatim and follow. Trying to go off topic and address real issues I and others see at my town hall was non fully possible. I do not know if some of those concerns were written in the notes the SE wrote, but the ones I was able to get out were not discussed or talked about.

 

In defense of the Scout Executives, or at least mine, he was ticked off at how national is doing this. He stated he received the instructions for this the day before he left for jamboree. He did not appreciate that. He also stated that National wanted the council key 3 to do the presentation as well as reading the scripts verbatim.

 

 

Regarding breaking points.  I know mine is coming. I am having a hard enough time trying to keep the district afloat because we essentially do not have a committee. I been in communications with other Scouters, and even spent 30+ minutes at work on a call with one leader who is adamant that there will be no girls in his troop because of how his church has set up the program as an outreach ministry to get at risk youth off the streets. 

[Stosh 3452]

I sat back a bit and watched this thread and reevaluated the whole process without comment.

 

1) BSA us unilaterally making major changes to the program.

2) The process is being supported by a sham survey and propaganda video to justify the decision.

3) There is negative feedback to the process.

4) BSA will give it time to sink in and hopefully it will all blow over in a few months.

 

By the middle of next month, all of this is going to be old news.  BSA got away with it with the homosexual scout, then the homosexual scout leader, then it's the girls, then it's going to be something else. 

 

In the Ivory office they tweak the program, watch and WAIT.  Nothing really happens, they poke the dog again..... Hmmm, nothing too drastic so they poke at it once more.  This process has been repeated over and over again since the early 1970's, the second half the scouting history.

 

Am I going to get too upset with this whole process?  Not really, but I have put my ASM on notice that it may be he becomes the SM overnight.

 

So everyone wails and moans and gnashes their teeth about how people are quitting the BSA.  Well. I will never quit on the BSA, but I will also go on notice that what I signed on for and what it has become, it just may mean BSA quit on me.  After almost 40 years now, I have watched the decline from the prestige and honor it once held in the minds of the American public.  No survey or video is going to convince me that this downward spiral is going to change just be turning the program into a generic social club like all other organizations for kids today.  Laud the merits of the BSA all you want, it doesn't ring as true as it once was and now sounds like nothing more than people yelling down an empty well.

[EmberMike 144]

...No survey or video is going to convince me that this downward spiral is going to change just be turning the program into a generic social club like all other organizations for kids today.  Laud the merits of the BSA all you want, it doesn't ring as true as it once was and now sounds like nothing more than people yelling down an empty well.

 

You're entitled to your opinion on the various changes over the years. I don't agree with your opinion, but how you feel is how you feel. 

 

I do, however, have to take issue with the idea that the BSA is becoming a "generic social club like all other organizations for kids today." Unless the BSA starts significantly changing advancement requirements or removes advancement altogether, it's not a social club and it's definitely not like all of the other orgs kids can be a part of. It's far from generic. This isn't a book club or a sport. It's not a social hangout, kids are expected to participate in learning activities, show proficiency in various skills, participate in community service, etc. And the amount of work it takes to advance, especially if a scout advances to Eagle, is a ton of work. 

 

If the BSA was becoming more generic, it would have folded years ago. What makes it unique is exactly what makes it still appealing to anyone. It's how we got into this whole co-ed debate in the first place, that girls wanted to do the BSA program because nothing like it exists anywhere else. 

 

I think it's disengenuous to call it a "generic" program. You're taking your opinions about policy changes and applying those feelings to everything about the BSA. 

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

I was re-reading "Masterminds and Wingmen" (good one BTW) on the problems Boys face in this culture last night and it reminded me the focus (duh) should be on how it impacts boys for the better or worse. I could argue it either way. Girls have a lot more opportunities and support today than boys; I would hate to take away what BSA gives boys now for a new family policy without getting into the details. 

 

This sort of change requires a great deal of trust between parties to pull off and it is not a good sign when National starts off with a disingenuous way to begin the discussion. To me it is a bigger deal than the Gay thing in that IMHO there were always were Gay scouts in the program for years anyway.

 

Obviously National sees the Scouting Program entirely differently than many boots on the ground.