Outside Magazine: Boy Scouts Should Allow Girls

[Stosh 3452]

Hold the branch, I'm right behind you.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I am not OA so I dont know all of the rules and so many adults who are venturing leaders both male and female in the OA I guess I assumed venturing aged females could get in now.

 

I don't think they can, but we have some OA experts in here who would know better than I do.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Folks under 21 are considered "youth" in teh OA and must have 20 days and nights of camping, including 1 long-term camp ion the past 2 years, BE FIRST CLASS OR HIGHER, (emphasis) and BE ELECTED BY THEIR TROOP OR TEAM (emphasis again).

 

So an 18-20 year old female could not get elected into the OA, at this time.

[Stosh 3452]

Just got back from my troop meeting.  The boys were at summer camp and I missed it.  Two ASM's handled it, I got called out on an emergency at the last minute and couldn't go.

 

What I didn't know was one of the ASM's talked to the camp and they agreed that she could bring along her granddaughter. 

 

Our troop is small and so we went in with another troop.  Needless to say I had to remind the boys that a Scout is Courteous, they were not at all please with this gal and the nickname they gave her I can't put on the forum.  Her older brother used to be part of the troop, but after a number of boys quit because of him, he went off to another troop..  Anyway, she was supposed to stay out of the way and entertain herself, but she attended MB classes, involved herself in all the freetime activities, and finally when she insisted she would be doing all the cooking for the boys, the adult leadership from BOTH units stepped in and put a halt to her interference.

 

When I mentioned that BSA was considering going co-ed, they unanimously said they would quit scouting.

 

Now she was the only scout aged gal at camp and that may have had something to do with it and maybe it's just her personality.  I don't know, I am only going on what the boys said.  I sure hope this isn't something that if BSA goes co-ed, that they have any regrets for doing so.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Stosh

[Zuse 9]

Stosh, your point rings true with regards to something shared at one of our council meetings about this topic last week.

 

It was mentioned only once--but it is true--that girls developmentally are mature at an earlier age than boys, which means that a lot more girls will be in leadership than boys and boys will struggle even more than they already do in many units to step up in terms of leadership.

 

I want girls to have the blessings of scouting, I truly do. But if it comes at the cost of neutering our young men in a program that technically belongs to THEM, scouting will fade away even faster than anyone will realize.

 

 

As effective as scouting is for the young men,  it's a shame more pressure isn't being put on GSUSA to reform and inoculate themselves against the loss of membership this change by BSA would cause. It will turn into a turf war between the two groups and unfortunately, the youth in the program are the ones that will be used as pawns by the adult (national, council, district and local) leadership. What a shame.

[qwazse 4342]

@@Stosh, we had a similar experience. Only it was a BOY scout from another troop untrained in the patrol method and patrol cooking.

 

But, with our situation the options were integrate fully or go home. They opted for integration.

 

When the only options are stay marginalized or partially integrate, it can only end badly.

[Col. Flagg 909]

Totally surprised a camp allowed that.

[Gwaihir 198]

Hold the branch, I'm right behind you.

 

Same. 

[qwazse 4342]

Totally surprised a camp allowed that.

It must be a regional thing. I'm not surprised at all.

[Col. Flagg 909]

It must be a regional thing. I'm not surprised at all.

 

It must be. In our area you would have to be a Scout or registered person. You couldn't just go as a sibling or child of a Scouter. They would never allow that. I am pretty sure all of our camps have rules around only having registered members in camp. All adults need face-to-face YPT and it is not offered all that often.

[walk in the woods 888]

Actually, the entire conversation (about girls in the BSA) has been going on for at least 45 years - long before Sydney Ireland was born.

 

As far as "separate but equal" being a PR disaster, maybe so, but if you listen to the CSE's presentation, we are heading for either "separate but equal" or "separate and unequal" at the Boy Scout age level.  I would think "separate and unequal" would be even more of a PR disaster, and it is a disaster that is easily avoidable.  By "unequal" I am mainly talking about the two issues that the CSE mentioned as still being up in the air for a new program, namely whether girls will earn Eagle and whether girls will join the OA.  Although from a public perception standpoint, the real issue is Eagle, because I doubt that very many people outside the BSA even know what the OA is.  So "equal" would mainly mean allowing girls to earn Eagle.

 

I'm not as confident that a separate track for girls, even if they use the exact program as the boys, will be viewed as a positive.  If the BSA launches a separate-but-equal program, I think two things will happen, first, Justice Warren will be quoted to no end and second, the headline story in HuffPo will read something like:

 

"The good news is today the BSA finally dropped their long standing sexist policy of excluding girls from their programs.  The new program will finally allow girls to participate in all levels of scouting and earn the Eagle Scout award.  The bad news?  The program is segregated by gender.  It's yet another example of bigotry, mysogyny and toxic-masuclinity of the BSA members and leadership.  To assume that girls can't handle the same program as the boys is just as oppressive as excluding girls."

 

A month later there will be stories on NBC News of a charter organization somewhere that implemented co-ed scouting in defiance of the national organization because the charter organization thinks it's the right thing.  Zach Wahls will release a statement that he's happy with the decision but knows there's more work to do.  The AG of NY will threaten to sue the BSA over their discriminatory programs.  We've seen this movie before.

 

After attending my council's meeting on the issue I'm more convinced than before that girls in the BSA is a made decision.  If there's a single lesson to be learned from the LGBTQ membership debacle in 2013 and 2015 it's that half-measures won't work.  The folks that are going to leave over girls in scouting aren't going to stay just because there's a SBE track for 11 - 13 YO girls.  So the associated membership losses will occur regardless.  The only question is whether they BSA leadership also ticks off their potential new market, and willing COs that's can't put together a second unit, at the same time.  

[Eagledad 2777]

I got to the part where Walk in the woods use the word sexist and all interest or integrity in the post was gone. Do you need anymore proof NJ that this move by the BSA has some political motivation?

 

Neutering the religious part of the program isn't far behind.

 

Barry

[Fehler 118]

It's the end of the world as we know it.

[Gwaihir 198]

I got to the part where Walk in the woods use the word sexist and all interest or integrity in the post was gone. Do you need anymore proof NJ that this move by the BSA has some political motivation?

 

Neutering the religious part of the program isn't far behind.

 

Barry

 

yep. 

[EmberMike 144]

...But if it comes at the cost of neutering our young men in a program that technically belongs to THEM, scouting will fade away even faster than anyone will realize...

 

I know we can argue endlessly whether co-ed will help the BSA with membership numbers, and there are as many opinions about this as there are members of this forum. So I'd rather not re-open that can of worms. But one thing I think is worth keeping in mind is that the BSA was and is fading away fast already. Some years losing over 100,000 youth members and 20,000 volunteers. And they repeat these numbers sometimes several years in a row. 

 

Is co-ed the solution? Or will co-ed increase the rate of decline? I think we're going to find out because it's happening whether anyone likes it or not. But let's be real about this. The BSA is already fading fast, and I think we'd hit a critical low membership level in 10 years if nothing else changes. There has to be a number at which it becomes problematic for National to even function as-is. 

 

 

...As effective as scouting is for the young men,  it's a shame more pressure isn't being put on GSUSA to reform and inoculate themselves against the loss of membership this change by BSA would cause. It will turn into a turf war between the two groups and unfortunately, the youth in the program are the ones that will be used as pawns by the adult (national, council, district and local) leadership. What a shame...

 

I personally don't know enough about GSUSA to know if they have any desire to change their program, or if it would help them. But based on what I saw in the Surbaugh presentation, the Girl Scouts do seem to share the common problem the BSA has of declining membership. Surely they must be thinking, like the BSA, about how to change their trajectory before they too face a critical low membership number. 

 

My niece quit Girl Scouts last year. I was bummed that it happened, but in talking to her mother about it I get why she left. It sounds like the program is out of touch with what modern girls want to do. I think they could reform their program and better serve their membership. But again, I have no idea if they want to do that. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by EmberMike