Sticky SM issue

[Big_Dog 10]

OGE-

Something else that jumps out is how important it is to have all of the adult roles filled with trained people. The COR should know what the goals are for the troop that are set by the CO. COR should be trained and know their role in setting up the adult leadership of the troop. CC should be trained and make sure the committee gets the training they need so they can be involved by doing their job. SM should be trained and know how the Scouting program should be delivered. Everyone should be involved and not let too much responsibility fall to one person.

 

bd

[pdunbar 10]

CO,COR Nice concept but not all of us are lucky enought to have an active CO. We are getting a new Co and have plans to try to get them motivated towards scouting. Maybe they will become interested and help solve problems like this one.

 

ASM's!! You need to get involved with your SM. Establish goals with the ultimate goals being boy-led and FUN!!

 

Boys need to learn that there are other solutions availble besides quitting.. If they are really into scouting it will take more than a SM that they don't like to quit.

 

About her boobies, she probably does have them. Statements may have been taken out of context.

 

Our troop just "dumped " our CO. Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do. I think if the local council would have helped we may not have lost our CO. And BobWHite, maybe if we would have worked as a unit we may have been able to smooth out our differences with the CR.

 

I have a hard time believing that the SM won't cooperate with the committee. Maybe you need more people on the committee. Ideally you are either an ASM or an Advancement Chair!

[Eamonn 61]

I have just read over this thread and I'm sat sitting here wondering what would have happened in the District in which I serve?

The $64,000.00 question is where was the Unit Commissioner?

I expect to have a full report to the District Committee every month on the health of each and every unit. If there is no Unit Commissioner the buck gets past to the ADC Scouts or the District Commissioner.

It seems that no matter what the SM was doing wrong the troop has grown under her leadership.However I would think that all this stuff didn't happen over night. I would have hoped that the DE would have met with the chartered Organization and maybe got wind of what was happening.

The leaders in our district are not shy when it comes to picking up the phone and giving me a call.

So far we have never had a situation like this one. If nothing else it shows what happens when there is a brake down in communications.

Eamonn (Dude)

[pdunbar 10]

Eammon

 

Not all CO's are active or really that interested in their units. This is where many of our units get into trouble. The same can be said for unit commissoners, spme take the positiion but do not follow through with the obligations of their job. One could then argue that the district commissoner isn't doing their job. What not go further and argue that the DE has dropped the ball.

 

When you really get down to it, the boys and their unit leaders in some cases have to resolve their problems on their own. Setting goals, both short and long term, may help to prevent to many conflicts. If the troop is running by the seat of its pants, problems are sure to arise!

[NeilLup 13]

Hello Greg,

 

You're in a tough situation. Thank you for sticking with it.

 

I've seen situations where the employees "fired the boss." One time, to my deep regret, I was the one being fired. If one loses the confidence of the employees, morale drops and productivity drops, then the bosses boss notices. If this person is any good, he or she begins making investigations talks with the employees, forms an opinion and does what they think appropriate. It doesn't necessarily even mean that the boss is completely wrong and possibly the employees are. But if the boss says "we'll all go the right" and instead the result is a random walk, for whatever reason, the boss is ineffective.

 

It sounds as if being SM is an important part of your current SM's persona. I have seen and met people like that. It is sad when it gets in the way of service to youth.

 

As a Unit Commissioner, I was involved in the "firing" of a SM. It is never easy. In that case, the youth were complaining, the parents were complaining and the CO was willing to do whatever the group wanted.

 

You are taking the appropriate steps. The choices would seem to be:

 

1)Let the SM continue in position. Accept the risk of loss of youth.

2)Arrange for the SM to leave the position voluntarily. This is much easier if there is some place for the SM to go. Is there something she can do which is worthwhile and beneficial but not involved with youth. Is she a reasonable trainer? Would she be a valuable contributor on Roundtable staff? Is she a camping expert?

3)Arrange for the SM to leave the position involuntarily. Painful, but it may be necessary. You haven't said what type of organization your CO is, I believe, but that can matter. If it is a church, for example, and the SM is active in the church, it can make matters tougher. On the other hand, if many of the Troop families are active members of the church, it can make the discussions with the CO more focused and likely encourage a resolution by the CO.

4) Start a new Troop. Ultimately, if the CO won't act, the choices are to have the boys fall by the wayside or do something else. I know that discussions of loyalty always come up with this is discussed but loyalty can cut two ways

5) Start a Venturing Crew. If you mainly are losing older boys, this could keep them around.

6) Involve your District/Council - This doesn't change the other actions but can help them. Possibly, the Commissioner and/or DE can help you in going to the CO and resolving matters.

 

One other matter, Greg, and I don't want to be picky or off topic. YOu said that you are ASM and Advancement Chair. There is something of a contradiction there. Advancement Chair is a Committee job. This isn't a trivial matter because a Board of Review requires committee members as the participants and if you aren't a committee member, you don't meet the letter of the advancement guidelines to participate. Of course, you don't need to sit on boards of review to be advancement chair but still, there is the contradiction between your serving as ASM working directly with the boys and your serving as Advancement Chair guiding and monitoring the Boards of Review which have as large part of their purpose monitoring the people who work directly with the boys. It's tough to be both pitcher and umpire.

 

Has your Committee had the Troop Committee Challenge Training. Have you and the other ASMs has training?

 

Hope the matter gets resolved in a way that preserves Scouting for your youth.

[Greg78 10]

The CO called a meeting Tuesday night. It got Ugly. Mind you he has only had dealings with the troop through the SM up to this point.

 

He totally disregarded the Parents recommendation to have the SM step down. He began his meeting by saying we should all work together and assist the SM to the correct path. A noble thought but we passed that point 18 months ago.

 

The CO set him self up like we were the ignorant masses and only through his leadership could we be saved from ourselves.

 

He stated he wanted to take a few months to have more adult meetings and then begin bringing the boys into the meetings.(????)

 

So, as it became apparent to the committee members and parents that this guy wasn't going to follow the parents recommendations the meeting turned into another SM bashing session. (while she was there) It was ugly. I tried many times to keep our message simple. "The boys want to quit, we need to have a change" That's the bottom line. I have to admit I really lost my cool with this guy. As I saw it the CO has two choices - Leave the SM in and destroy the troop, Or remove the SM and go with the new unified majority of parents and leadership. (sorry I worded that on which way it should go!)

 

A few of you have asked where the DE has been through all this - As all the DE's are, he or a close representative has been to every meeting since we started these proceedings. The Council has bent over backwards in providing whatever resources, guidance, and advice to help us through this process. The support I get from the Scout Professionals is what saves me from throwing up my hands and leaving.

 

We included the DE from the first meeting. The CO was hurt that we didn't include him but he has never shown an interest in getting involved before. I think he got involved at the appropriate time though. After the parents and committee came together and made their recommendations to the CO, he only had to look at the various outcomes and the recommendations presented to him to come to a decision.

 

OK so the meeting dragged on and on as the CO would (long windedly) come up with an idea and the parents would struggle to get him back on track. As we are all parents we began leaving the meeting to take care of our responsibilities. The DE and Unit commissioner both stayed and talked with the CO and explained to him what the troop wants and what he needs to do to get there.

 

So instead of getting a resolution we are now waiting for the COR to take the issue to the CO Board. We are going ahead with our program schedule to maintain the troops momentum during this crisis. We will wait, but not for long. In the meantime we are throwing out some feelers in case we need to change CO's.

 

I want to thank you for all your comments and support.

 

NeilLup - ASM vs. Adv Chair, I have stepped back from ASM duties while I am Adv Chair.

 

I'll update until we have this issue resolved. Thank you all

 

 

 

[Greg78 10]

The Board (COIH) voted to keep the current SM as Scoutmaster.

 

I came away from the vote feeling admonished for taking up the cause for our boys and our parents, that the decision was based on process and desires of the adults instead of the boys wish for a leader that they can look up to.

 

This is the worst outcome for this group of boys that wanted to take control of their troop. We will lose our momentum. The troop will be paralyzed until we come up with a new plan. Probably to start another troop...

 

It saddens me that a CO wouldn't work with the majority of parents of their older Scouts. Does the CO know better than the boys own parents?

 

Should I just quit? I heard alot of extolling on leadership and working together. They didn't understand that we had been there and done that already...

 

[NeilLup 13]

Should I just quit? I heard alot of extolling on leadership and working together. They didn't understand that we had been there and done that already...>>

 

Scouting should be fun and rewarding for all participants. In your unit, rather clearly, the SM has a vision of how things should be and the CO buys into that vision. You appear not to share that vision and, instead, to have a very different vision.

 

As I see it, you have a limited number of choices at this time:

 

1) Change your vision to be in line with the SM and the CO

2) Suck it up and be frustrated

3) Do #2 while waiting for the SM to leave and/or the unit to fail

4) Find a Scouting unit more in line with your vision

5) Start a unit in line with your vision

6) Give up on Scouting

 

I hope that you don't do #6. Scouting is a great organization with enough freedom and flexibility for everybody to do what they wish.

 

At this point, I would consider changing Troops if I were you. Life is too short to be frustrated, angry and hurt over an organization which is supposed to be fun, uplifting and rewarding. A Scout is Loyal is a two way street and the ultimate loyalty should be, in my opinion, to oneself.

 

There is nothing wrong with promoting one's own view of how things should be in a proper manner and then, if one concludes that one's vision does not fit in Troop A, trying to find another unit where you fit better.

[PNScouter 10]

I have worked with Greg on this issue and am the person which the committee may have chosen to nominate for the Scoutmasters position if the CO had voted in a different way. However, that is now water under the bridge so to speak. Now we need to pick up the pieces.

 

BTW, Greg told be about this forum and I have been watching (lurking) for about six weeks and I have learned so much in that time. This is a great site!

 

I would like to know what is the right thing to do? Several boys are truly frustrated with our current SM.

 

The options like NeilLup stated are there, however, I will narrow them to three.

 

1. Stay and attempt to work it out.

2. Go to another troop which may fit the boys better.

3. Start another troop.

 

I cannot consider the quitting option and to change my vision to match our current SM and CO would, I believe, go against the aims and methods of scouting.

 

Option #3 is potentially the most appealing to me. I say potentially because the down side to this option is that I believe that eventially only one troop will survive and this is terrible thought. We are in a very small community and will be recruiting scouts from the same pack which has less than 25 members currently. Splitting the troop will mean splitting up some friendships and that is not what we had in mind. On the up side we could start a troop which is truly boy run and leader supervised. I have a potential sponsor lined up and a majority of the boys and parents (including 5 MCs and two ASMs) are likely to follow.

 

I would like to offer the frustrated guys the #3 option but as I have stated it has huge rewards and huge consequences.

 

 

 

 

[CubsRgr8 10]

Even though we only see one side of the story in this thread, it's clear to me that the relationship between the current SM and these older boys and their families is damaged. Go start a new troop. The current SM will probably be glad to see the "dissidents" leave. The older boys will get a new SM and troop philosophy. The community will have two troops, and more youth will be served because you will recruit, recruit, recruit, not just from the small pack, right? Go for it!

[KoreaScouter 13]

I agree with cubsrgr8. If you start your own Troop, you'll be able to do it without the high blood pressure you're enduring now.

 

Don't worry about the size of the Troop, or whether you're competing for feeder pack Webelos. First, I know of no empirical evidence that the BSA mission can only be achieved in mega-units, or that any of the methods can't be used in a small Troop. Second, you don't have to recruit just from a single feeder pack. Enlarge your field of fire.

 

This is supposed to be fun for everybody, including you. If you're not having fun, and you want to keep on Scouting, you need to change something.

 

KS

[Eamonn 61]

In another thread someone asked:"Do Scoutmaster's get the troop they deserve?"

OK, it was me who asked!!

While my son is a Scout in a local Troop and my ever loving is now a member of that troop committee. I at this time am not on any unit charter. This allows me to act very much like an outsider looking in.

Over the years that I have served on the District level, we have of course tried to get new units started. Many in fact most of the troops in the district have leaders that have been around for a long time or have the "Old" Scoutmaster lurking in the back ground. We do have two new troops that have started fresh within the past five years.

Both started with a graduating class of Webelos Scouts and leaders that were new to Boy Scouts. The road they traveled was at times very rocky and both troops seen good days and bad days. Both troops now have about 30 Scouts and are growing. I suppose that some people could say that they were just lucky. I see two troops that are doing things by the book. Both have very strong Troop Committees. Both have a good working relationship with their chartered organizations. Both troops wear the full correct uniform and are always at round table.

When we talk about these units it has been said that they were lucky in that they didn't know how to not do things right!!

One troop meets in the middle of no where in a building owned by The Grange. Many of the Scouts live on farms. The other meets in a small town of less then 5,000 that has three other troops.

Starting a new troop might be the way to go. I would suggest that before you start recruiting Scouts that you talk with your DE and District Training Chair. Do everything possible to get all the adults Leaders and Committee Members trained before you recruit any Scouts. Have the DE and other members from the District Committee meet with the people from the Chartered Organization. Try and discuss where you think the troop is going and find out what the expectations the chartered organization has and what support you can expect from them. Don't rush into starting the new troop. Do all your homework.

Eamonn

[Herms 10]

That's very wise council Eamonn. Like I explained to a new leader last night, they need to remember to always do "What's best for the boys".

 

The way I see it from reading all of your posts, is that you feel if you don't move to a new troop or start your own will you lose these boys from scouts? If the answer to that is yes, than what is best for the boys is to move, but move with purpose as Eamonn stated.

 

Another question I have is while all this fighting is going on between adults are the boys getting out camping? Working on advancement? Having fun?

 

It is always saddens me to see members of our great brotherhood of scouting fighting amongst themselves.

 

Good luck and keep us informed.

 

[PNScouter 10]

Herms,

 

The answer to your qrestion is yes. We just came back from a weekend outing where I think the guys had a good time. We make it work during outtings by basically conforming to the SMs wishes in order to present as positive an experience to the scouts as possibe. All of these issues were discussed at the committee level or with the board of our CO.

[FScouter 24]

The chartered organization might be looking at this situation differently if they had been kept appraised of the doings of the troop over the past 18 months.