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UncleP

Push for Coed Scouting

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I'm still looking for proof of denied opportunity.

 

Yes, GS/USA has set itself up so that hiking and camping monthly is not a priority. So, young women feel like they are being denied the opportunity to do that. They tell me as much. But, the vast majority aren't about to change anything.

 

Careers? The only reason so many Eagles are noted for their distinguished achievements as adults is because of good marketing for 100+ years. If an award has only been available for 40 years, even the best marketing will not be able to associate it with half of today's distinguished women.

 

NOW-NYC cites disparity due to scholarships awarded to Eagles, implying that fewer scholarships are forthcoming to Gold Awardees or girls in general. I'm not feeling it. My daughter raked in more scholarship $'s than my boys.

 

The young lady in question wants opportunities. Well, look at her green shirt. I have a little book that lists the very distinguished awards that can be earned with it. Even if her petition fails, she has several great paths to success ahead of her. I look forward to seeing her as an officer in the Northeast Region.

 

Qwazse, for some reason I had the impression from past discussions that you supported making Boy Scouts and/or Cub Scouts co-ed.  Is that incorrect?

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I don't understand the discussion; the BSA can't be successful without girls? Really?

 

As I have said before, admitting girls should be based on if the membership change will help "boys" grow more than the program is doing now. And I don't see how it can. If the patrol method is as powerful as many of us claim it to be in building character, putting girls in that mix adds a complication that makes it more challenging, not less.

 

Barry

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As one of my favorite movies points out, "when everybody is special, nobody is."

 

I like that movie too, enough to know that that line is spoken by the villain, who is a psychotic murderer who "gets his" at the end.  Is that really who you want to be quoting?  (Or actually misquoting, it's "super", not "special".)

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This movement is about taking down religious, male, conservative institutions.

 

I think that's ridiculous.

 

What I see is a few girls who want to join the Boy Scouts.  I think that's great.  Someone wants to join the Boy Scouts!  We must be doing something right.  If it were a failing institution as some in this forum seem to believe, why would anybody be banging at the doors to get in?

 

That does not necessarily mean I think they should be let in.  As I have said in prior discussions of this issue, my preference would be for the boys* to be in the Boy Scouts (and Cub Scouts) and the girls* to be in the Girl Scouts.  (*As defined by the current policies of both organizations.)  I do think there would be undue disruption to the programs if they were suddenly made co-ed, particularly the Boy Scouts.  As I have said before, what I have observed in my troop is that on those rare occasions when an older teenage sister or two visits a troop meeting, at least half the boys turn into... I'm not even sure what word to use.  They become completely useless, let's put it that way.  (I'm sure I was the same way at that age.) I shudder to think what the constant presence of girls would turn them into.  Maybe this could be dealt with over a period of time, but I am still swayed by the fact that there is an equivalent organization (at least, potentially equivalent) for girls.

 

As for the rank of Eagle, I do not recall this being a big issue before this one girl from New York.  I suppose the Eagle rank does have somewhat more prestige than the Gold Award.  Maybe the BSA and GSUSA should team up on an informational campaign to make everyone realize that the two are equivalent (assuming that they are, I don't really know; my daughters got to the 7th and 2nd grades, respectively, before dropping out of Girl Scouts.)  On the other hand, as I have also said before, I am not opposed to girls earning Eagle, if a way can be found for them to do the Scout-1st Class requirements in a way that does not disrupt the current Boy Scouting program.

 

Ah, the tough life of a moderate - I have given all sides something to throw stones at.

Edited by NJCubScouter

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Ah, the tough life of a moderate - I have given all sides something to throw stones at.

Moderate, or moderator. I've known you on this forum a long time NJ, moderate would lean toward exaggeration. :rolleyes: And I think it is also why you can't tolerate letting the discussions get too political. 

 

As for the "This movement is about taking down religious, male, conservative institutions." quote; a gay activist organizer said that exact same thing to me in 1993.  I thought ridiculous at the time.

 

Barry

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@@Cambridgeskip offers a litany of women moving into the male dominated areas of society.  Yet, where's the list of where men are allowed into a female dominated areas of society?

 

I had many years of adult leadership in many organizations, community, religious and Boy Scouting.  Yet when my daughters were in GS/USA I offered up my expertise and was rejected because they wanted women running their troops.  When I was looking for employment I applied for a position in the local GS/USA offices and having sent in an application and resume, did not hear back from them but the help wanted ad stayed in the newspaper for a month afterwards.

 

Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. 

 

I cook, I sew, I do laundry and I clean house, I do needlepoint and embroidery, and many other traditional "female" skills, yet the stares I get are all the same.  I would try Heritage Girls, but I really don't like wasting my time, I have limited volunteering time in my life to waste it on political agendas. 

 

I have 1700+ hours of volunteering for the American Red Cross since June 1st of last year.  I have gone on two disaster relief operations one in Louisiana, one in South Carolina and today I am clearing my calendar with backup people for my church youth group and Scout troop because I might get deployed to Northern California to do another disaster relief operation because of the 180,000 people evacuated from the possible dam breech. 

 

Maybe if some of these people with political agendas ever decide to roll up their sleeves and "help other people at all times" instead of whining about not getting an Eagle medallion, something more constructive can be accomplished.

Edited by Stosh
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I agree with the post about the difference between equity and equality.

 

Girls are given a chance to join the Scouting program, it's called Venturing. They can even earn a pretty tough award.

 

Girls are not "injured" by not being able to join Boy Scouts. They are not denied anything because they are not Eagle, except the ability to join NESA. But I cannot join the AMA as a doctor because I'm not one. Maybe I should force them to change. I feel discriminated against. :rolleyes:

 

Girls could always claim to be boys and join a unit. Then they can get Eagle.

 

So, there are her options. Pick one and more on.

Edited by Col. Flagg
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Qwazse, for some reason I had the impression from past discussions that you supported making Boy Scouts and/or Cub Scouts co-ed.  Is that incorrect?

Well, there is no doubt that my direct influences are from scouts from other countries who find us utterly perplexing.

 

My position, specifically, is that BSA should be quick to recognize "first class scouts" regardless of sex. But, I also believe that a lot of parents who look for a program specifically for boys will take their business elsewhere if BSA caters to special interests. This may result in a net loss of youth being served for a decade or more. So I can respect BSA's tentativeness.

 

More importantly, detractors who argue, without proof, that girls are being harmed will only leave us wondering about why they aren't being helped by any adjustment made. If the total pool of scholarship dollars for girls is smaller than for boys, prove it. Then, prove that distributing scholarship $ due to Eagle awards to women who earn that award will make a dent in that imbalance.

 

Finally, any external detractor of BSA's exclusions should put his/her efforts behind the model youth organizations that meet his/her approval. Any other action seems like trying to use boys as unwilling tools for social engineering.

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  On the other hand, as I have also said before, I am not opposed to girls earning Eagle, if a way can be found for them to do the Scout-1st Class requirements in a way that does not disrupt the current Boy Scouting program.

This is actually trivially easy to solve.  Venturing has a 4-level recognition system.  Move Star, Life and Eagle into Venturing, exclusively, with the merit badges and such, as Levels II - IV.  Make the first level of Venturing recognition the equivalent of Scout-First Class requirements.  Scouts coming from Boy Scout Troops as 1st Class would start working at Level II, girls and boys without Troop experience could choose to work starting at Level I.  SLE could be presented as a parallel track to the other awards in Venturing to give scouts options.  Expand the Eagle brand to include Ranger, Trust, Quest, whatever those programs are called.

 

Boy Scouts would become the middle school program.  This has the added benefit of removing merit badges from Boys Scouts, and therefore Boy Scout summer camps.  It would turn the Boy Scout program into a longer transitional process from Cub Scouts to Venturing, eliminates the debate about mixed-age vs. new scout patrols, gives helicopter parents a chance to mellow out.  

Edited by walk in the woods
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Ugh, this is just getting ridiculous. Why can't the world today just let an organization made for boys BE FOR BOYS? I hope the BSA National Board ignores this "push" entirely. Just because lots of people want it doesn't make it right.

 

Ignore it? I think they're part of it. Ultimately they can choose to do whatever they want and yet they have gone with greater inclusion every step of the way. Even without outside pressure. Was anyone pressuring the BSA to create a co-ed STEM program? 

 

This isn't always an issue of reacting to outside influences. Some inside influences are certainly in play on all of these issues. 

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Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 

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Monetary/professional benefits for Eagle earners (such as the up-step in pay in the military) should be rescinded, unless the award can also be earned by girls, or if a complimentary award (such as the GSUSA Gold Award, and/or whatever the top Venturing award is) is also recognized. 

 

Do that and you need to take away other non-needs based programs or scholarships. To be fair, you cannot advocate that salaries or loans or scholarships be based on anything other than merit or needs. So no more only [insert pet cause here] scholarships if it is not open to everyone.

 

If we are going to be truly blind I have no problem opening up Eagle to all. If we are going to continue to cheery pick what we make open or closed, then please leave Eagle as it is.

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... This isn't always an issue of reacting to outside influences. Some inside influences are certainly in play on all of these issues. 

The young lady in the article has a venturing shirt and World Scouting neckerchief. That pretty much qualifies as inside influence.

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I like that movie too, enough to know that that line is spoken by the villain, who is a psychotic murderer who "gets his" at the end.  Is that really who you want to be quoting?  (Or actually misquoting, it's "super", not "special".)

First of all, his name is Syndrome. And secondly, yes, he is exactly whom I want to be quoting, actually, because he reveals that this modern idea, that everybody should get the same thing, that "girls should be boy scouts too," that nobody should be allowed to exclude - it's fundamentally a BAD IDEA. It's the VILLAIN who wants everybody to get the same privileges whether they earn them or not, the VILLAIN who wants to level the playing field to the point that there's no point in playing, the VILLAIN who wants to ensure that nobody gets a chance to excel, because that would be "unfair" or "elitist" or "unequal." The very idea that merit has not place in society is fundamentally problematic, if not blatantly wrong. 

 

So yeah - Syndrome is exactly the one I want to quote, because his idea is, at its core, a rotten one. That is just my point, and I am glad you asked me to clarify, although it would seem you were hoping I would back up on what I said. In the which case I must disappoint you.  ;)

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... The very idea that merit has not place in society is fundamentally problematic, if not blatantly wrong. ...

 

 

And it has absolutely nothing to do with co-ed scouting. Co-ed doesn't remove the merit component of earning rank. 

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