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UncleP

Push for Coed Scouting

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Crossed over in 1972 to a scout troop.  Ah the good old days in GNYC, Oscar de Loren uniforms, hiking the Palisades trail from the GW bridge and camping weekends at Alpine Scout Camp without any adults.  Good times, good times...

 

Oscar de la Renta and Ralph Lauren would like to know which of them you are referring to.  Well, ODLR is no longer with us, but you know what I mean.  And he's the one you are referring to.  We weren't wearing his uniform in 1972-73 though.  It was not introduced until 1980, several years after I was out of Scouting, and long before I got back in.

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Oscar de la Renta and Ralph Lauren would like to know which of them you are referring to.  Well, ODLR is no longer with us, but you know what I mean.  And he's the one you are referring to.  We weren't wearing his uniform in 1972-73 though.  It was not introduced until 1980, several years after I was out of Scouting, and long before I got back in.

You are right on the date of the ODLR.  Guess I'm growing old and senile and I can't staff no more...

 

Been in scouting for many years now.  With the exception of two years in Korea, (No scouts at the DMZ where I was stationed) I've been an active scouter.  Strange how the years go by and blend together.  So many changes...

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agreed.  In fact I've had this exact discussion with one of the dads in my unit.  Bear is just about perfect to start in my opinion..... maybe even wait for 1st year WEBELOS....although I suppose that would depend on having a well run pack for older boys introducing patrol method and such.... if it's too babied down maybe not so good...

 

It wasn't really that long ago that CS did start in 3rd grade and WEBELOS was only a year. 

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First the origins of scouting. Much of the early days of scouting had a bigger emphasis on preparing boys for military service.

Really? That is the opposite of what Baden-Powell wanted.

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Whatever BP meant by "Peace Scouts," he created a world movement.  Did Scouting "join up" when war came?  Of course - all over the world.  ( I had a relative who joined the friends - a Quaker - who volunteered as a stretcher bearer in WWI.)  That doesn't mean Scouting was designed as a tool to grind out soldiers to control empire as certain revisionist hyperventilation would have it. 

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Really? That is the opposite of what Baden-Powell wanted.

Certainly post First World War it's what he wanted. He seems to have had quite a change of heart after that. But if you look at the material pre First World War the emphasis is still obviously there.

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Certainly post First World War it's what he wanted. He seems to have had quite a change of heart after that. But if you look at the material pre First World War the emphasis is still obviously there.

 

"I’ve seen enough of war to want to keep away from the military idea. Woodcraft, handicraft, and all those things are invaluable. First aid and all that goes with it is excellent; but the boys should be kept away from the idea that they are being trained so that some day they may fight for their country. It is not war-scouting that is needed now, but peace-scouting. The explorers, the pioneers, the persons who are always on the lookout to do something for the benefit of humanity, are the ones who count, and that should be the motto of every boy scout." (B-P, 1912 Chicago Address)

 

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Edited by Peregrinator

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As much as we (collectively) revere B-P as some sort of semi-deity (or at least a prophet) whose words were handed down on stone tablets, the fact is it often seems like for every quote from him, there is an equal but opposite quote on the same subject.  The same is true for George Washington.

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And so there is a debate about how to evaluate BP.  This article gives a summary of the waring sides - plus the author's conclusion: https://weberstudies.weber.edu/archive/archive%20B%20Vol.%2011-16.1/Vol.%2014.2/14.2Voeltz.htm

 

You seem to reject Jeal's conclusions that BP fought before the war to keep Scouting demilitarized.

 

That BP said the "patriotic" things when the war was on seems hardly a surprise.  Who was saying otherwise?  

 

There is not doubt that he used the term "peace scouts" in Scouting for Boys.  The troop in which I scouted as a boy began as California Peace Scout Troop 43 in 1908.  In the last installment of Scouting for Boys, B-P Said:

 

"“Two or three prominent authorities have written deprecating my attempt to 'foster among the boys of Britain a bloodthirsty and warlike spirit'. I can only fear that either these gentlemen have not read the handbooks very carefully or that I have expressed myself very badly. The whole intention of the Boy Scouts training is for the peaceful citizenship. Even if I had advocated training the lads in a military way (which I have not done) I am impertinent enough to see no harm in it. I have not noticed that ex-soldiers are more inclined than other people to commit murders; all that I see in them, as a rule, is that they have been taught self-discipline, to sacrifice for themselves, if need be, for others, to obey orders, to be sober, clean, and active to make the best of things as they find them to be loyal to themselves and their officers. All of which appear to me to be valuable assets in character for a citizen, whatever may be his grade or trade.â€

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I think it is fair to say that B-P would have expected any able-bodied man to come to the defense of his country. And surely, one of the aims of scouting is to produce able-bodied men! Yet I believe that is as far as the connection goes.

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Back to OP, I hope Scout Sydney Ireland is allowed to join so as to have a fair chance to justly earn her Eagle.

 

Fair versus just. There is a difference, What is fair is not necessarily what is just. What is just may not seem fair.

 

When I was young scout, just meant the same requirements for all scouts. When you earned your Eagle you stood with other scouts who shared the same accomplishments and not just the medal. No one was special. I struggled for months with the pull-ups and push-ups required for Personal Fitness but that was the standard and all Eagles met or exceeded those requirements. There were no 300lb Eagle Scouts; there were no Eagle Scouts with disabilities. All Eagles had a Rockwell uniformity.

 

Years later, fair meant meeting similar requirements per special needs. Everyone is special, There were now alternate requirements. Every scout would now have a fair opportunity based on their abilities to earn Eagle. Just?

 

I bet Scout Ireland could match or exceed my accomplishments towards Eagle. Maybe Scouting will open to all kids who must meet the same requirements for advancement. That sounds just to me.

 

My $0.02

 

Update: April 29, 2017

 

Sydney takes scouting and the skills involved so seriously that she has sought membership in troops outside the U.S. She is a full, dues-paying member of a troop in Ontario, Canada — one of dozens of countries with co-ed scouting. In fact, Sydney recently earned the Chief Scout's Award, Canada's highest honor in scouting, and has the badge and a letter of congratulations from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to show for it.

 

But she is determined to become an Eagle Scout as a full member of Troop 414, reaching the top achievement of an organization she has been part of nearly her entire life.

 

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/29/526021195/meet-the-teenage-girl-who-wants-to-be-a-boy-scout

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We are in the process of struggling with this issue.  Right now, a Venture Crew is on the horizon but has yet to fly.  Idea is to have a very general and flexible focus, but to incorporate the various approaches to what might be considered the "arts"; that is broad and includes both visual and language and hopefully have a connection to the local public broadcast station and its equipment.  Still, enough flexibility that possibly do more traditional skills while filming or writing about them or developing photo books and such.  Put together calendars, or modern comic books with Scouting themes.  Create a local nature trail with an app that allows more detailed info to the user.  Lots of opportunities.

 

The key is to be flexible, reasonable, but keep the basic and important values.  It can be done, but it actually requires serious involvement by a broader group of adults in congress with the youth.

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Update: April 29, 2017

 

Sydney takes scouting and the skills involved so seriously that she has sought membership in troops outside the U.S. She is a full, dues-paying member of a troop in Ontario, Canada — one of dozens of countries with co-ed scouting. In fact, Sydney recently earned the Chief Scout's Award, Canada's highest honor in scouting, and has the badge and a letter of congratulations from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to show for it.

 

But she is determined to become an Eagle Scout as a full member of Troop 414, reaching the top achievement of an organization she has been part of nearly her entire life.

 

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/29/526021195/meet-the-teenage-girl-who-wants-to-be-a-boy-scout

 

Correction from Wiki

The Chief Scout's Award is the highest award which can be achieved at the Scout level in Scouts Canada. It was inaugurated in 1973 by then Governor General of Canada Roland Michener. The award was created to provide recognition for Scouts when the Scout program was divided into the Scout and Venturer sections. The former Queen's/Kings's Scout award was renamed as the Queen's Venturer Award, and is the highest award that can be achieved in the Scouting youth program in Canada.

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