new scoutmaster Question

[Dmward 2]

@Dmward Welcome to the forum.

 

 

Lots of advice, but I need more information on what's going on.

 

Second offense... could be a deal breaker for me. People learn from past mistakes, obviously this boy hasn't.

 

What drugs? Prescription? marijuana? Did he buy drugs or did he steal from someone's medicine cabinet? Under-aged youth in possession of tobacco or alcohol can be construed as possession of illegal drugs.

 

Is he a user or a dealer?

 

One does not walk in and take over as SM from off the street. How long have you known this boy?

 

Way too many questions to toss out advice.

I do not know what or how much drugs he was caught with, I do know his first offence was pot. The previous scoutmaster did offer him a second chance and was disciplined and had to do service hours on a project chosen by the scout master. I was told by school officials "off the record" that he was arrested at school and what he was caught with is very serious and will be charged with some serious charges that carry mandatory jail time, in his case juvenile detention When the first occurrence happened the scoutmaster did approach the parents to discuss and the father became very hostile and angry and was banned from attend any and all scout functions. approaching the parents may not be an option in this case. I do not judge a child by his parents actions. I do not know if he is just a user or a dealer. has we all know its practically imposable to get information on a miner unless its your own child. Ive known the boy for the past 4 years, Ive been a adult leader for over 10 years, 2 years as a den leader,3 years as assistant cubmaster, 4 years as asm, and a month as scoutmaster.

Edited May 5, 2017 by NJCubScouter
Moving new material outside the quote box - NJCubScouter

[fred johnson 936]

One can forgive him and help him without rewarding him with an Eagle BOR. Most certainly help the kid. Just don't reward him for twice violating the law, his Oath and the many Scout Laws.

David CO - I agree that it may not be a small transgression (but we still don't know the specifics surrounding this incident).  The question I have is, what would the scout need to do to deserve forgiveness, to earn back your trust, and to qualify himself for rank advancement?  And how can he do those things once you've expelled him from the troop?

 

I agree with wanting to help and be a friend.  I just put things in reverse order.  If he's going to be a member of my troop, he needs a path for advancement.  So for me, the question is whether he can productively be part of the troop or does he put our influence with the other scouts at risk.  Or put their health, safety and future at risk.  Does he want to be part of scouts?  Does he value what scouts value?  

 

I fully agree.  You can't tell what is in a person's heart.  But by their past actions (that you carefully discuss privately with others), you can usually project the future.  Some people are attracted to the edge of society.  Some people are attracted to that which they are told not to do.  Some search it out.  

 

But for my scouting unit, if I think I can have him in scouts without risking the other scouts or the troop, then I feel I need to give him a path for advancement.  

 

The one challenge would be "scout spirit".  There would need to be something (time, action, discussion) that would make me willing to sign it.

Edited May 4, 2017 by fred johnson

[Sentinel947 1205]

I think OP has responded with more details in post 31.

 

With a second occurance of this issue I'm not sure if I'd keep him in the troop. It shows a lack of interest in changing his behavior. If his parents were belligerant with the previous SM, then I could not reasonably expect to be a partner to them in addressing these issues.

 

More generally, the age of the Scout matters in these situations. If a 14 year old gets in trouble with drugs or in an altercation, there is alot of time to reform behavior. Their advancement to Eagle is a possibility to me. If you have a 17 year old Scout, maybe not. Depends on the nature of the problem and if its the first time.

 

It depends. I'm not a huge fan of zero tolerance policies. It forces me to go with a one size fits all solution and constrains my ability to make problems better.

[Col. Flagg 909]

A big liability issue bringing such a Scout back in to the Scouting fold. Will he do this on a camp out? What risk is there to other Scouts? 

 

There's another side here: The SM's obligation to all the other Scouts in his charge.

[David CO 1783]

A big liability issue bringing such a Scout back in to the Scouting fold. Will he do this on a camp out? What risk is there to other Scouts? 

 

There's another side here: The SM's obligation to all the other Scouts in his charge.

 

I agree.  I would add that this obligation is not the SM's alone.  The Chartered Organization owns the unit, and it has the bulk of the obligation to protect all of the other scouts.

[fred johnson 936]

I do not know what or how much drugs he was caught with, I do know his first offence was pot. The previous scoutmaster did offer him a second chance and was disciplined and had to do service hours on a project chosen by the scout master. I was told by school officials "off the record" that he was arrested at school and what he was caught with is very serious and will be charged with some serious charges that carry mandatory jail time, in his case juvenile detention  When the first occurrence happened the scoutmaster did approach the parents to discuss and the father became very hostile and angry and was banned from attend any and all scout functions. approaching the parents  may not be an option in this case. I do not judge a child by his parents actions. I do not know if he is just a user or a dealer. has we all know its practically imposable to get information on a miner unless its your own child. Ive known the boy for the past 4 years, Ive been a adult leader for over 10 years, 2 years as a den leader,3 years as assistant cubmaster, 4 years as asm, and a month as scoutmaster.

The big question ... What does your gut tell you?  You've known the scout for a long time.  I sense you are asking in this forum as you are saddened by what your gut tells you.

 

Every youth caught with drugs in school is effectively arrested.  It's part of the process.  Routing to the juvenile court system is normal.  Sometimes there is an intervention process.  But, if there is large volume, it could be different.  I am not sure schools care "user" versus "dealer" as it's a fine line with it being friend-to-friend and who-agreed-to-do-what and who initiated the brilliant idea.  I think the "volume" tells more.  

 

My gut says the scout needs to go elsewhere to spend his time.  Second time ... parents hostile in the past ....  It's time to protect your scouts, your troop reputation, your volunteers and clearly communicate it's not acceptable in the troop.  I'd ask the "committee chair" to talk with the parents letting them know the decision.  It's not about ditching the responsibility.  It's about you the SM still being a friend for the scout ... even if he's a former scout.  The CC or COR should do the dirty work.  

[Stosh 3452]

With each situation, there are hundreds if not thousands of mitigating circumstances that make each one unique.  I think the "Gut Check Gauge" is probably the best answer for the OP.  Although he know very little about the situation, he at least knows more than any of the rest of us, nor does any of us really know how we would react if faced with a similar situation.

 

The whole discussion about whether this is an unforgivable situation is moot.  If it was a sexual misconduct situation, the boy were to do 25 years in prison, he would still live to be 95 years old on the sex offender roster, his debt to society has been paid, but a number of social welfare benefit, places he could live and places he could go and who he could associate would never go away.  Next week I will be attending the burial of a friend of mine who was an veteran, served his country, became an alcoholic due to PTSD, passed out and was awakened by the police on a sexual charge.  He spent 15 years in prison and as soon as he was out he continued to drink until he drank himself to death, literally.  Why?  There was no other recourse for him in our society.  Drug dealers, murderers, thieves and a whole host of criminals get off eventually.  Life isn't fair, and if the boy doesn't get his Eagle, that's a life lesson he will need to live with for the rest of his life.  At least he won't have to register with the authorities annually where his whereabouts are.  Forgivable or not, some punishments are forever.

[qwazse 4344]

FWIW, scouts can still work on rank advancement in juevenile detention.

Talk to your scout executive if this is a possibility where you are.

 

As Frank mentions, don't let this one kid bog down the rest of the troop.

It's past time for him to start acting like a first class scout.

 

There is room for redemption, but probably not in your troop. Prepare to transfer records.

[Ankylus 52]

_{1. The school officials here are classic. They are going to tell you just enough to put you on the spot but not enough for you to really act. Gutless, spineless wonders, and unfortunately all too exemplary of most "educators" today. OK, rant over...}

 

_{2. Really, you don't know a whole lot. I personally don't trust these particular school officials given the way the cavalierly are breaching privacy laws and policies.}

 

_{3. If you can establish to your satisfaction that he is in fact guilty (not necessarily legally) of a second offense, then the scout has burned his second chance.}

 

_{4. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is concern for the safety and welfare of the other scouts in the troop. If he is dealing, you really want to expose your other scouts to that? Nobody sends their sons to scouts so that they can experiment with mind inducing drugs.}

 

_{5. His conduct is clearly contrary to the Scout Oath and Scout Law in several respects. Some people have pointed out that this did not happen within the scouting program. It doesn't matter...we are all supposed to live that way even in our lives outside of scouting. Some have pointed out that we all fall short of the Scout Oath and Law in some ways. So, you think you can a free pass on sinning because everyone else does it? I do believe authority figures stopped accepting that excuse in Kindergarten or so. We all know people who do things they should be punished for but they get away with because they didn't get caught. That is how life works.}

 

_{6. It is apparent that the parents are going to be of little help.}

 

_{Once you have satisfied yourself that the scout is indeed guilty of this offense, I think you need to act. I might wait for the scout to be charged.} 

 

_{We have a formal disciplinary board of review that acts as fact finder and judge. The SM and CC are always on it. The other two members may be either CM or ASM. Boys with relevant information are asked to attend with their parents. Questions are asked. Issues discussed. Then the scout is thanked and, if necessary, punished. Punishment.may range from service hours, to revocation of a POR, to expulsion from the troop. First time offenders are always offered a second chance. I suppose we could have a first time offense serious enough to warrant expulsion, but it hasn't happened yet.}

 

_{In your case, personally...I agree with the crowd that he has used his second chance and shown that he is not interested in changing his ways. You do him no favors by enabling this behavior. And that is exactly what it is if he suffers no consequences for his refusal to change his behavior. And this is just the stuff you know about. The punishment? I am good with anything from extra service hours, zero tolerance moving forward, extra time to think about it....all the way to expulsion. Personally, I think unreformed druggies are a menace to a program like the scouts, a cancer that needs to be excised. I would expel him.}

[David CO 1783]

I don't agree with Ankylus.  I think most educators are very careful about privacy issues.  

 

In a situation like this, when a student is arrested at school, a teacher may or may not be able to talk about it.  It often depends on whether or not the student was arrested in public.  

[Stosh 3452]

One also has to accept the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty.  There seems to be a lot of conclusion jumping on limited information. 

[Back Pack 431]

Change the situation from kid arrested twice for drugs to adult arrested twice for DWI. Does he remain SM and drive your kids?

[Stosh 3452]

It's all relative........

 

 

 

.... and I have relatives that fit both categories 

[Dmward 2]

I'm curious, do you think you catch every scout who's guilty, or is getting caught the real transgression?

First, I do not look to "catch any scout" whos guilty of anything. that's not why I am involved in scouting and if that was the case id quit right now. getting caught twice with weed in school while a scout is the real transgression. The first offense we worked with him and he was disciplined, 40 hours community service for the church we meet at. this is his second offence.....  

[Dmward 2]

Change the situation from kid arrested twice for drugs to adult arrested twice for DWI. Does he remain SM and drive your kids?

Exactly!!