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Transgender policy change

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Whether it is or isn't effecting membership numbers is separate from the idea that it was a change that didn't have significant support within the BSA. It did have significant support. Whether it was a good idea or not is a different argument.

 

Significant support with in BSA? There is a difference between support and acquiescence. I personally think the changes in '13 and '15 were logical changes, because the "sin" and "moral" issues were shaky ground (that is for another thread) and did not oppose them. But I am in fact aware of only a small percentage that outright supported the changes. I am aware of far more that opposed them. 

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You could have just as easily asked, what did they have to gain by letting "Colored kids" go to schools with white kids?  I'd say they have the gained the moral high ground by doing the right thing. 

 

I believe now, just as then, you're on the wrong side by believing either decision is the wrong move.

 

His moral perspective differs from yours, so he is wrong?

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Nationally, in much of our social and political discourse, we have  gone from "I disagee" to "You're wrong" to "You're evil."  

 

Less so here.

 

Interestingly, last time I looked, the group that "buys" the "It's like race" argument is least likely to include persons of color.

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One always has to remember that we live in a country where freedoms are important.  One of those freedoms is the freedom to associate with whomever they wish.  If the current group has begun to redefine itself in ways different than it once did, there is nothing wrong with it, but there's nothing wrong with individuals freedom to find other associations to align with.  If the changes cause one to concern whether or not the risk is too great then the choice they make is the right one.

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Tahawk said:

 

So I'm a liberal now? My liberal friends will be stunned to hear that.

 

 

My Goddess, if you're a liberal, what does that make me?

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No, they are not the exclusive domain of boys, but the stated purpose in the congressional charter is for the training of boys. Read the charter again carefully - it doesn't say boys exclusively - it says boys - I'd argue that you can serve girls and adults as well - heck, you can even serve dogs and cats - as long as you are serving boys. It's if you stop serving boys that you run awry of the charter, not if you serve people in addition to boys.

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Now that I have read through the entire thread I have a question for some of you......When did God die and put you in charge of determing the legitimacy of his creations?

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Tahawk said: So I'm a liberal now? My liberal friends will be stunned to hear that. My Goddess, if you're a liberal, what does that make me?

I was wondering the same thing about myself. I guess it would make us Bolsheviks or something.

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One always has to remember that we live in a country where freedoms are important.  One of those freedoms is the freedom to associate with whomever they wish.  If the current group has begun to redefine itself in ways different than it once did, there is nothing wrong with it, but there's nothing wrong with individuals freedom to find other associations to align with.  If the changes cause one to concern whether or not the risk is too great then the choice they make is the right one.

It seems to me that all you are really saying here is that people have the right to leave the BSA if they want. Of course they do. They always have.

 

But they also have the right to not leave, and to try to influence the organization to change from the inside.

 

Or they can just stay and "live with it."

 

As you say, freedom is important.

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Now that I have read through the entire thread I have a question for some of you......When did God die and put you in charge of determing the legitimacy of his creations?

Just curious, but to which position in the debate is this question posed?

Edited by HelpfulTracks

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Tahawk said: So I'm a liberal now? My liberal friends will be stunned to hear that. My Goddess, if you're a liberal, what does that make me?

In the History Department I was called a "fascist" (when I felt "Uncle Ho" was as likely a liar as the U.S. government) and at Law School a "red" ('cause I thought advising a hypothetical client to stand his ground and shoot down "looters" was poor legal advice when retreat was possible).  Seems to be a matter of point-of-view.  

 

Labels don't bother me all that much.  How about you?

Edited by TAHAWK

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It seems to me that all you are really saying here is that people have the right to leave the BSA if they want. Of course they do. They always have.But they also have the right to not leave, and to try to influence the organization to change from the inside.Or they can just stay and "live with it."As you say, freedom is important.

I won't try to put words in Stosh's mouth, but generally and historically speaking freedom of association has aligned about creating and joining rather than abandoning and dismantling. Protections offered by the constitution have been aimed at preventing the state from attempting to diminish, discourage or destroy the rights of people to associate with those of similar beliefs.

 

Change from within would be characterized by building consensus based on merits of a policy change. I don't know anyone, opponent or proponent of recent policy changes, that would argue these changes came from building consensus from within BSA based on merit, rather than external pressure.

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His moral perspective differs from yours, so he is wrong?

No, he's not wrong because he has different morals.  I made no such blanket statement.

 

He is wrong though if he thinks it's ok to discriminate against one particular set of children.

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I am certain there is some scenario that everyone will draw a line and say, no, that is not acceptable. Thus that line varies from individual to individual. 

 

So far, it seems Transagism seems perfectly fine for all. 

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First off, the BSA policy is for membership, not YPT or other purposes.  As stated above, unless I hear differently, I'm defering to state law definitions of gender for YPT.  Second, I don't think that someone being transgender is required to be a secret.  Even in the articles about the Scout from New Jersey, it was made clear that everyone was aware that he was transgender.  Third, I don't think there is a basis for a lawsuit for treating transgendered youth differently if their birth certificate identifies them differently than their gender identity.  Again, state law controls.  

 

In my limited dealings with parents of transgendered youth, they are only looking for reasonable accommodations.  They recognize that their child is different -- they aren't in a state of denial.  They realize that their child's gender identity makes their child's life so much more difficult and sets their child up for a host of potential problems.  But they are like any other parent, they love their child and they want to protect them from life's cruelties as best they can.  If they know that you understand their situation and are living the Scout Law in respect to their child ("Trustworthy"  "Friendly" "Courteous" and especially "Kind") they will understand your situation and work with you to make sure that there is a Middle Way (reflecting the Buddhist concept of a path that takes neither extreme but focuses and values our shared humanity).  

 

In our Crew, the transgender members tent with other scouts that have the same gender identified on their birth certificate as opposed to the scouts having the same gender identity (with the scouts and their parents fully aware and comfortable with this situation).  This isn't because of some adult rule, it is what the Scouts figured out on their own.

 

Good luck with that.  Again, you have completely missed the point.  Go back and read the new policy.  You keep talking about a "Birth Certificate".  In all my years of scouting, I have never seen or had a birth certificate given to me.  If mom and dad put on that application that Jane is Johnny and never say a word to you, how will you ever know until something happens.  Oh and by the way, you are not allowed to ask.

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