Transgender policy change

[EagleonFire 23]

Oh and there is no need for alcohol on any scouting function. If you can't go an entire campout without touching a drink then you have no business being any kind of influence on the kids. If your that hot a glass of water will suit you much better. Heck I won't even allow the adults to break out the soda's until the kids are in their tents for the night. If it's okay for you why is it not okay for them

[Eagledad 2777]

They can't have sodas? Hmmm

 

So your adult rules are more important than my adult rules?

 

Barry

[TAHAWK 1420]

They can't have sodas? Hmmm

 

So your adult rules are more important than my adult rules?

 

After years here, and in life in general, I conclude that the obvious answer is, "Of course they are."  Just as your adult rules (opinions) are more important - valid - than mine.  It takes real effort to give the other guy's opinions equal weight with ours.  Some cannot even consider a different opinion.   Human nature.

Edited April 9, 2017 by TAHAWK

[tyke 31]

out of interest, whats wrong with kids having Soda ? its only the same as juice, just carbonated ?

[NJCubScouter 1389]

In the UK your also allowed to have a beer on camp, some of the bigger camps even have bars. The only rule is that you can't drink in front of the kids, and you don't get plastered and there are some leaders that don't. There is nothing nice than a nice beer or glass of wine by the fire once all the kids are all tucked up in bed, and you can relax and chat with the other leaders.

 

Well, for all I know, the BSA policy on consuming alcohol may now be the same as it is in the UK.  Or not.  I used to know what the BSA alcohol policy was, but then about 2 months ago the BSA issued a new version of the Guide to Safe Scouting with an "updated" and "rewritten" section on alcohol.  It was discussed and linked here:  http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/28807-updated-guide-to-safe-scouting/?hl=%2Bguide+%2Bsafe+%2Bscouting.  They took a reasonably clear and specific policy and basically changed it to "follow the policies of the BSA on this subject."  Well, what is the policy?  WHERE is the policy?  I don't know.  As someone else stated in that other thread, the G2SS now refers to the new "Scouter Code of Conduct" (which I have other issues with, but that would be a different thread) but the "Code" basically says the same thing.  It refers to a policy that is somewhere else.  I don't know where it is.  Does anybody know?

 

What I had been hoping was that the BSA would revise the poorly-written, confusing, weaselly-worded policy on smoking tobacco (which has been discussed in this forum a number of times over the years) and change it to something similar to the (old) policy on alcohol.  Something along the lines of, "No Smoking."  (I realize some here may differ, but that's my view.)  Instead, they left the smoking policy as it was, and "updated" the policy on alcohol to remove the actual policy.  I don't get it.

Edited April 9, 2017 by NJCubScouter

[Eagledad 2777]

After years here, and in life in general, I conclude that the obvious answer is, "Of course they are."  Just as your adult rules (opinions) are more important - valid - than mine.  It takes real effort to give the other guy's opinions equal weight with ours.  Some cannot even consider a different opinion.   Human nature.

Last week, a colleague and I were stuck together car in a during a business trip for several hours. As things go these days, and we found ourselves deep into each other's political ideals. After we concluded our trip and stated heading to our own cars, my colleague turned and thanked me for intellectual discussion that forced him to consider other angles on the subject. He actually said intellectual. What did we do for him to respond like that, we patiently listened to what each other and responded respectfully without judging or condescension. We both behaved within the scout law.

 

Some here like to call this forum a campfire, but after years here, I find our human nature struggles to restrain our emotions to patiently respect each other when we aren't sitting face to face. At real campfires, my scouting colleagues and I have approached many subjects from opposite sides of opinion, but we always seem to get in our sleeping bags with the same respect for each other that had before the camp out. Seems we adults struggle with the scout law when we arent held accountable by face to face contact.

 

Barry

Edited April 9, 2017 by Eagledad

[TAHAWK 1420]

out of interest, whats wrong with kids having Soda ? its only the same as juice, just carbonated ?

No.  It's not.

[tyke 31]

yes.. it is

[RememberSchiff 3662]

Are we talking bug juice or real juice? In US, regular soda is carbonated, HIGH sugar content, usually caffeinated more than coffee, no nutritional value.

[TAHAWK 1420]

Well, for all I know, the BSA policy on consuming alcohol may now be the same as it is in the UK.  Or not.  I used to know what the BSA alcohol policy was, but then about 2 months ago the BSA issued a new version of the Guide to Safe Scouting with an "updated" and "rewritten" section on alcohol.  It was discussed and linked here:  http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/28807-updated-guide-to-safe-scouting/?hl=%2Bguide+%2Bsafe+%2Bscouting.  They took a reasonably clear and specific policy and basically changed it to "follow the policies of the BSA on this subject."  Well, what is the policy?  WHERE is the policy?  I don't know.  As someone else stated in that other thread, the G2SS now refers to the new "Scouter Code of Conduct" (which I have other issues with, but that would be a different thread) but the "Code" basically says the same thing.  It refers to a policy that is somewhere else.  I don't know where it is.  Does anybody know?

 

What I had been hoping was that the BSA would revise the poorly-written, confusing, weaselly-worded policy on smoking tobacco (which has been discussed in this forum a number of times over the years) and change it to something similar to the (old) policy on alcohol.  Something along the lines of, "No Smoking."  (I realize some here may differ, but that's my view.)  Instead, they left the smoking policy as it was, and "updated" the policy on alcohol to remove the actual policy.  I don't get it.

Far be it from me to accuse BSA of a practice of regularly writing clearly, and you caught them again.

 

Their policy/rule/regulation is that you should not violate their policy/rule/regulation, without having a policy/rule/regulation.

 

Not in the Scouter Code of Conduct:

"8. I will not possess, distribute, transport, consume, or use any of the following items prohibited by law or in violation of any Scouting rules, regulations and policies: a. Alcoholic beverages."

 

Not in the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

"As outlined in the Scouter Code of Conduct, Scouting activities are not a place to possess, distribute, transport, consume, or use any of the following items prohibited by law or in violation of any Scouting rules, regulations, and policies: alcoholic beverages or controlled substances, including marijuana."

 

Even this in Scouting:

"Model Good Behavior

If the adults in your household drink responsibly, you don’t need to go on the wagon to set a good example. In fact, says Foster, kids need to see adults using alcohol responsibly. (They certainly see enough irresponsible drinking on television and in the movies.) “It’s important that kids grow up in environments where it’s either not there at all or it’s there and used responsibly,†he says.

So should parents who imbibe wait to drink until the kids are in bed? Foster doesn’t think so. “It’s better to have it out in the open and be able to talk about it than to sneak,†he says." http://scoutingmagazine.org/2014/04/help-scouts-venturers-avoid-drug-alcohol-addiction/

 

So we have a real clear rule on home-made alcohol stoves but no rule on alcohol except not to violate a rule that cannot be located or no longer exists?

 

Please, someone, prove us wrong.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss04.aspx

Edited April 9, 2017 by TAHAWK

[CalicoPenn 729]

This has been an interesting thread - from where we started to now discussing the alcohol and smoking policies of the BSA and soda versus juice.............On Soda vs. Juice (and I'll toss in Chocolate Milk) based on sugar content alone, there really isn't that much difference between soda and the "more healthy" juice and milk....20 oz coke = 65g of sugar, 20 oz mountain dew = 77g, 20 oz orange juice = 60g, 20 oz apple juie = 65g, and 20 oz chocolate milk = 72.5g.

[Stosh 3452]

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/high-fructose-corn-syrup/faq-20058201

[Eagledad 2777]

yes.. it is

We keep saying that Patrol Method works because scouts learn from their decisions. Some decisions, even in their simplicity, are very good teachers because they expose ones balance of discipline and self desire. I personally like scouts to see their strength and weaknesses of making choices, so we presented them with many choices, most of which they didn't realize was on purpose. 

 

We adults can't force a scout to change his behavior, he has to make that change himself for it to be a life change. Scouts are more likely to change when they see their consequences repeatedly. It's easy to tell a scout his behavior is wrong. The challenge for scouters is presenting scouts in situations where their personal choices motivate their changes of behavior.

 

Is a coke all that much different than candies, cup cakes, Pop Tarts, cell phones, and techs like Gameboys? Health depends on the balance of mixing treats within a healthy diet. Of course we adults can restrict temptations from scouts for their own good, or we can allow those choices in a safe environment where they face the consequences of their choices. The more consequences they face, the more they learn of themselves.  I found cokes, and other treats, to be a very good test for scouts to see themselves.

 

Barry

Edited April 9, 2017 by Eagledad

[Col. Flagg 909]

out of interest, whats wrong with kids having Soda ? its only the same as juice, just carbonated ?

 

According to our last First Lady, stuff like that was bad for kids so she crusaded to have it taken out of all the schools, along with ice cream, french fries, pizza, etc. The inedible crappola that took it's place was a nutritious as a piece of shoe leather and about as tasty. Thankfully, that has been repealed and kids can now be kids again and bring to school what they darn well like.

 

Are we talking bug juice or real juice? In US, regular soda is carbonated, HIGH sugar content, usually caffeinated more than coffee, no nutritional value.

 

Appears BSA took a stand on bug a few years ago. Funny how so many American Scouts grew up on bug juice and didn't die, turn out to be mass murderers or overly obese. We drink more water today than we did back then, and yet kids (and adults) are fatter. Bug juice is the LEAST of the BSA's food problems.

[TAHAWK 1420]

yes.. it is

 

They are both full of sugar.  They both have a high glycemic index.

 

HFCS is much cheaper than sugar, allowing inflation-adjusted prices for pop to fall, allowing greater consumption of fructose at the same cost. (Remember when the standard pop bottle was 8oz.?)

 

A "small" beverage at McD's is 16%.  The cup costs more than the pop.  Free refills !!!  

 

Graphing juvenile obesity, it tracks quite nicely with the sharp incrase in consumption of HFCS  - now up to over sixty pounds per juvenile per year. 

 

Volume for volume,  OJ has Vitamin C, plus potassium, thiamin, and folate, all lacked by pop, and would cost significantly more, discouraging consumption.

 

Water !!!

Edited April 9, 2017 by TAHAWK