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Cubmaster35

Please help?!

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at the risk of getting ripped a new one, let me just add to the general consensus that it would be best if you release whatever attachment you have to your unit number, along with the less than $50 and camping/fishing gear, and move to create a new unit elsewhere with the members and leaders you have.  Hemming and hawing is wasting valuable time...you are NOT going to be able to change this situation with your current CO.  That may upset you but its just the cold hard truth.  and yes, its very unfair.

 

while Im offering opinions I wasnt asked for, I think you were a little hard on the Beaver, Ward...

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Unfortunately the ultimate hurt from us all is the question as to 'why' would any person who wants nothing to do with a scouting group, just not let them go with all their belongings and funds? Why go through so much trouble to squander less than $50.00 and sell off camping/fishing gear donated to the pack of boys that could not experience the outdoors without it?

 

The boys have worked so hard for everything they have.

 

The equipment and funds of a unit belong to the Chartered Organization.

 

It is the duty of the SM, CC, and unit treasurer to keep an accurate accounting of all equipment and funds.  If this is not done properly, the CO is justified in removing volunteers from these positions.

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Cubmaster35,

 

    I was a successful Scoutmaster with a successful program at my church for over 33 years. Politics happened, and I refused to play the game, so I resigned.

 

    As this troop died in about two years, council asked me to set up two new troops. After training their adult and youth leaders, things aren't perfect, but moving forward nicely.

 

    To keep things going forward for your Cubs, it's important that you "release" yourself (and the other leaders) from this quagmire, and start a new unit elsewhere. The spirit your group has created from all of their hard work, will move with you to the new Pack. "Success" is the great healer.

 

Focus on the Cubs, and things will be fun again.

 

sst3rd

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My advice...forgive, forget and move on. It sounds like things have reached the end with this CO. Nothing will be achieved by fighting with the pastor, hiring a lawyer to represent you, etc. For your mental health and more importantly, the health of your group of scouts, find another CO to sponsor a pack that has demonstrated its success. The hurt that you feel now will fade quickly as you focus your attention on scouting rather than politics.

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@@Beavah you are a vile human being. The things you have not only assumed but publically stated have literally made me sick to my stomach! You sir have given me the very same feeling that I get while thinking of what the parents thought as soon as they got this letter. How damaging.

Wow, ad hominem attack extraodinaire! No hint of scout spirit around this post! I have (taking vumbi's advice for once) restrained myself from attempting to enter this 'conversation' and if there had been any doubt about it before, the above post confirmed it. To me it is clear that there is a problem. The above post is a good indicator of where to look to define it.

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@@frankpalazzi.....any felony????? Where the hell has this conversation gone? How dare you. So let's take one nasty assumption/allegation/suggestion and replace it with something equally disturbing.

 

NONE OF OUR LEADERS HAVE DONE ANYTHING WRONG LEGALLY OR NON!.......AS STATED BY BSA.

 

@@Cubmaster35 I am not going to let this go unchallenged.  This is the second time you have distorted my words to your own "liking."

I simply pointed out the levels of removal, CO vs. National.  At no time did I ever state that someone committed a felony.  Reread the post please. And carefully.

 

Also, the Scout Law states: A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal,  Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

"Twisting" my words (twice), and calling another poster on this board "a vile human being" certainly exemplifies all the points of the Law, doesn't it?

 

Shall we go through all the points you have broken in this thread?  I'll leave that to someone else, for I don't really have the time or desire to get into a pissing contest with you, especially after your engaging in namecalling to another highly respected member of this forum. 

 

By the way, Beavah is a member of the Legal community.  Any lawyer would ask the same questions based on the information you gave.  Are you going to go stomping and sniveling out of the attorney's office when he asks you the same questions?  If so, don't waste your time or money. 

 

Do you exhibit this same type of behavior in the Scouting community?  If so, prepare to find yourself persona non grata  in your town, district, and council.  I've seen this before in my 35 years as a Scouter, it's nothing new.

 

I had some advice for you, but  based on your recent behavior in this forum, I've changed my suggested course of action:  Fold the pack, give the pastor the $50, give the boys transfer applications to other units, and find something else to do outside of Scouting.  If your attitude and penchant for modifying the words of others are any indication, then you truly are not providing a healthy environment for the youth.

 

I am truly stunned.  I have nothing more to add.

 

-Frank

Edited by frankpalazzi
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... 'why' would any person who wants nothing to do with a scouting group, just not let them go with all their belongings and funds? Why go through so much trouble to squander less than $50.00 and sell off camping/fishing gear donated to the pack of boys that could not experience the outdoors without it? ...

Well, the answer to that is simply a belief that the CO has better things to do with those assets than you do.

 

Just like most scouters believe the best thing we can do for kids is provide them a well rounded outdoor program, others believe quite the opposite.

 

In this case the pastor believes that someone can produce something better with the church's resources. And/or he believes that you are not that someone.

 

So, you have got confirmation that there will be a liquidation?

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Wow, ad hominem attack extraodinaire! No hint of scout spirit around this post! I have (taking vumbi's advice for once) restrained myself from attempting to enter this 'conversation' and if there had been any doubt about it before, the above post confirmed it. To me it is clear that there is a problem. The above post is a good indicator of where to look to define it.

One of the first things I was told as a new OA Ordeal member:  "First, Look Within."

 

I've never forgotten those words, or who said them to me.  In 1982.

Edited by frankpalazzi

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One point about unit equipment and finances... we often hear that the assets and fund belong to the CO.  While there is some truth to this, look at the Fiscal Policies and Procedures for BSA Units.  In there it states:

What happens to the unit funds and equipment should the unit dissolve?
The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall
turn over the surplus, if any, to the chartered organization or the council, as may be agreed upon,
pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of
America.

 

 

So the funds and equipment can't be used for just any old purpose, they must be held or used "for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America."  What this means is that a CO can't take the funds/equipment and sell them and use the money; a CO also can't use the equipment for a non-BSA Scouting unit.  Both of those would be violations of the BSA Rules and Regulations (google that if you want to find the source for the Q&A answer above).

 

So the Pastor can keep the funds and equipment if he wants to be vindictive, but he can't use it unless it is to form another BSA unit.

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My experience was handling several calls from CO heads wanting someone - anyone - to remove gear formerly used  by lapsed units so the CO could use the space.

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Clearly it is time to go, you have no leverage with the CO. It happens. It almost happened to us under rumors and misunderstandings with a new Pastor but now he is our biggest supporter. But in your case its, done, over, finished.

 

Again it doesn't matter if it was fair or not.

 

I thought Beaver's comments were not off base. And you really did not provide much info. I was on a church board for a while and there were reasons people were let go. Usually it was because they did not handle something well (son of a leader doing something wrong and it going unreported and the CO getting wind) or something like embezzlement. Sometimes it is because a scout ran over the ministers pet turtle as a kid or whatever. I think the reason may be important in case you take that person with you with the new unit.

 

I hope you do not treat other scouters like you treated some on this board, if so you may be running a one-person show. We ALL get emotional about our units but if it is really about the boys the smart thing is to start a new unit with associated numbers. We has one local one that had a split #33 and the spin off is #133--they say they are "100% stronger".

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If it turns out that someone from the unit has possession of the missing equipment or funds, I would strongly advise against trying to take them to a new unit.  

 

It is understandable that the people who raised the funds might feel that they should be portable, from the current unit to a new unit, as the scouts switch units, but this is not so. Taking them without permission would be stealing, and that would not be setting a good example for the boys.

 

Yes, any remaining equipment and funds should be used to promote scouting.   

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@@Cubmaster35

 

You may not like what some of our members have to say. You may respectfully disagree. Do not make another comment like the one you made on the last page. This is your warning.

 

Some of us here are a little rough around the edges, but this forum has some of the most caring and well meaning folks on the web. Take our commentary in that light. Beavahs comment was overly speculative, but was not a character assassination. His point is well meaning. There could be reports about you, whether they are true or not.

 

You can tone down the name calling, and calmly give us the details of the situation, or you can insult my fellow forum members again, and I will have to make you leave.

 

The choice is yours.

 

Best regards,

 

Sentinel947

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Cubmaster 35:  Welcome to the forums.  Looks like you got your wish in asking for advice (that IS what you wanted, yes?).

 

Doesn't mean you would agree with the advice, just that you would get it.   Name calling?  I didn't see/read any initially, only supposition and possibilities, given what you shared.

 

Tit for tat?  Not very Christian in my faith.  Return love for hate.   In our case, follow the Scout Law and Promise, even here.  Allow, if he will,  the pastor of the CO to  "do the right thing", but do not back him into a corner where he will continue to do the "wrong thing".   Keep yourself on the higher moral ground. Do not return his bad behavior with worse .

 

My general advice:

1)   Remember the Scout Law, the Scout Promise, and while you're at it, The Golden Rule.

2)   Document everything.   Record witnesses to conversations.  Save emails, print'em out.   Keep a diary of phone conversations, etc.

3)   Talk to the others in your old Pack leadership.   Keep the conversation going.  Invest in a new coffee maker.

4)   Definitely talk to your DE,  your District Commissioner, and ask about forming a new Pack with your existing folks.   Your bridges have already been burned, move on.  In most Cub Packs I have known, most of the "gear"  is privately owned but "loaned" to the Cubs.  Flags, Pinewood Derby Track, maybe Packs , but the other stuff is Mr. Jones', or Mrs. Smith's.

5)   Take a deep breath and drop your own pretense at having all the answers.  You do not.  Your friends from the Pack  have some, you have some, the pastor has some (even if you don't really know or like his version). The DE and DC have some.  Listen more than you speak. 

6)   We each of us dig our own hole to climb out of.  If I understand the inferences you gave about the pastor, he may be digging his own hole deeper.  He may (MAY) have been transferred from another church to give him another chance (ummmm, that sounds familiar.).  

7) The truth will out.   Be patient.  Be not vengeful.  

8)   To quote again the wisdom of Bob The Tomato, "It's for the kids".    Keep that up front, and you won't be half wrong.

 

I was once denied a staff position for the Jamboree , this after having previously served succesfully at the Jamboree, many years of  fruitful training,  documented leadership and awards.  It took me three months of polite, persistent,  logical,  email, phone call, personal visits, letters from my associates to find out the truth of the matter.  It was ultimately worth it.  But if I had yelled and screamed about how unfair and poorly treated I felt, I would not have succeeded .  And, I feel, the BSA was the better for my efforts.

 

See you on the trail...

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In the spirit of honesty and full disclosure, I wish to admit to the other members of this forum that I am, at times, a vial person.

 

Many of the Science classes that I have taught, including Biology and Physical Science, have been vial classes, and I have taught some vial lessons.

 

If BSA continues to promote STEM, I am very much afraid that this may become a vial activity.

 

Please excuse me for my vial language.

Edited by David CO
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