Micromanaging Scoutmaster

[Back Pack 431]

We had a guy like this in our troop last year. Our scoutmaster was an avid chess player. He had a hard time speaking to this one parent so he brought his chess clock to a camp out. During one afternoon he used the chess clock when talking to the parent just to prove his point. It was done in good humor and with the consent of the other parent. The point was proven that afternoon.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Back Pack

[blw2 433]

I had asked a similar question.... not exactly the same, but a similar situation a while back, that prompted the podcast about cooperative volunteering a while back over at scoutmastercg.com

http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-294-cooperative-volunteering/

 

These sorts of things are very frustrating indeed.

and it's something that I struggle with a lot.  I think it's a personality thing for me.  I want to just be blunt about it, or point things out directly.... but I'm not the best at the whole people thing sometime so I know enough to bit my lip a bit.

There is only so much that a person will listen too, and it greatly depends on who it is coming from and who they are, how and when it's presented, etc...

[ASMInVirginia 3]

We had a guy like this in our troop last year. Our scoutmaster was an avid chess player. He had a hard time speaking to this one parent so he brought his chess clock to a camp out. During one afternoon he used the chess clock when talking to the parent just to prove his point. It was done in good humor and with the consent of the other parent. The point was proven that afternoon.

 

Love it!

[ASMInVirginia 3]

I had asked a similar question.... not exactly the same, but a similar situation a while back, that prompted the podcast about cooperative volunteering a while back over at scoutmastercg.com

http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-294-cooperative-volunteering/

 

These sorts of things are very frustrating indeed.

and it's something that I struggle with a lot.  I think it's a personality thing for me.  I want to just be blunt about it, or point things out directly.... but I'm not the best at the whole people thing sometime so I know enough to bit my lip a bit.

There is only so much that a person will listen too, and it greatly depends on who it is coming from and who they are, how and when it's presented, etc...

 

I'm the same way.  I believe in getting right to the heart of the problem, and I am not much of a talker.  The SM can spend over 10 minutes talking about something that can be said in one minute.  I usually try to say what needs to be said in as few words as possible.  After a while, I tend to tone him out, and he always assumes that silence means consent.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, definitely don't send letters to the committee!  That's a sure way to burn bridges.

 

First, yeh talk to the fellow.  Somewhere out of the way where his ego is less likely to get involved.  Somewhere public where behaviors are moderated.  If there's an old, wise fellow with a lot of social capital associated with your unit (former SM, long-time committee member, etc.), have him participate in da conversation.   Old, wise fellows aren't as ego-threatening as someone your own age/status.

 

Recognize that controlling talkative fellows you need to argue with a bit.   Like yeh said, they take silence as consent.   They need push-back, and then they need space and time to think about it.  Odds are they won't agree right away, but they'll go home and mull it over and then might make some changes.  Be prepared for that.  

 

Keep da focus on the lads, and what you're seeing, and what yeh (both) want for them.   That also keeps it away from egos.   "We're working together on this", not "you're doin' this wrong".

 

It takes courage and kindness to help a brother scouter learn to do better.  And, like as not, a lot of patience.  Good luck with it!

 

Beavah

[ASMInVirginia 3]

It takes courage and kindness to help a brother scouter learn to do better.  And, like as not, a lot of patience.  Good luck with it!

 

 

Thanks Beavah.  Our last SM holds a great deal of social capital.  He's very wise and an excellent listener.  I'll see if he would be up for a chat.

[meyerc13 85]

What an interesting case.  A leader who says he wants things Scout run, but then does just the opposite.  I think Beavah nailed it in his reply - the SM probably has no idea he is doing this.  A conversation might work, but I suspect that video-taping might be more eye-opening for him.  I think his intentions are good... and I agree with some of the changes he made (merit badges were never part of Troop Meetings when I was growing up; the boys should be teaching each other, without the adults getting in the way; and patrols should cook their own meals, even if only two of them are on the campout), but in so many other ways he is off track.

 

As for Journey to Excellence, sadly it tends to measure the wrong stuff when it comes to Boy Scout Troops.  While it can be a useful health check to some degree, it doesn't do well in measuring how well a Troop is boy-led and how well they use the Patrol Method.

[ASMInVirginia 3]

As for Journey to Excellence, sadly it tends to measure the wrong stuff when it comes to Boy Scout Troops.  While it can be a useful health check to some degree, it doesn't do well in measuring how well a Troop is boy-led and how well they use the Patrol Method.

 

Agreed.  Thanks Chris.

[blw2 433]

Thanks Beavah.  Our last SM holds a great deal of social capital.  He's very wise and an excellent listener.  I'll see if he would be up for a chat.

but that can be a backfire too.... the old SM can't let go, the new SM might get resentful, etc.... it's an attack, its undermining, and so on

 

.... I think Beavah nailed it in his reply - the SM probably has no idea he is doing this.  A conversation might work, but I suspect that video-taping might be more eye-opening for him.  I think his intentions are good... and I agree with some of the changes he made (merit badges were never part of Troop Meetings when I was growing up; the boys should be teaching each other, without the adults getting in the way; and patrols should cook their own meals, even if only two of them are on the campout), but in so many other ways he is off track.

 

probably right.... well intentioned, no idea, etc....

Video taping could easily come off as an attack

as could a forced or staged conversation with the old SM

put yourself into the new SM's shoes...  how would you feel if someone took a video of you, then proceeded to show it to you and point out all the things you are doing wrong?

most folks wouldn't take that well, even the most open minded among us....

 

In my thinking, the most logical approach is the conversation..... but it needs to be well timed and casual.  Not planned or pointed.  Not one directional, but more like an "oh by the way" while in the middle of a friendly chat..... joking around the campfire in a friendly manner..... that sort of thing...

but really it is so personally and situationally dependent.... only you can really know when that person is open to hearing it, when you feel that you can say it in the right way, when you have enough of a bond or clout to be heard, etc....

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

ASMinVirginia I thought you were talking about our Troop! This was a few years ago and I was you. Very difficult to be publicly supporting the SM while privately trying to get him to stop micro managing and talking so long.

 

Nothing discourages a boy more--especially those who really bought in to Boy Led--then micromanagement. Boys do not like letting their ideas get shot down 'just because'. I had to listen in on some of those 1-2 hour calls...it was torture for me and I am a bureaucrat. 

 

The cost of boy-led can be chaos--on that point the SM is right. And I would agree on the scout skills being taught whenever possible by boys. The impact and frustration by ASM's is a separate issue.

 

Our SM eventually moved on but not before hitting the morale and membership hard. 

[ASMInVirginia 3]

ASMinVirginia I thought you were talking about our Troop! 

 

 

Thanks Tampa Turtle.  It's good to hear from others who have been in similar situations.  Yes, morale is low, and we are losing some of our older scouts.  I really enjoyed the boy-led chaos when we had it before, and I am completely fine with the scouts teaching skills to the other scouts.  I also have no problem in allowing them to fail if they show up unprepared.  The new SM makes his disappointment known rather than have a backup plan, and he definitely instills a fear in the scouts that their leadership may not count toward rank advancement when they fail.

[Stosh 3452]

Failure is the cornerstone of education.  How can a good leader help others when they fail when he has never failed himself?

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

It takes a united brownshirt front to support boy-led from fast track parents.

[Back Pack 431]

Thanks Tampa Turtle.  It's good to hear from others who have been in similar situations.  Yes, morale is low, and we are losing some of our older scouts.  I really enjoyed the boy-led chaos when we had it before, and I am completely fine with the scouts teaching skills to the other scouts.  I also have no problem in allowing them to fail if they show up unprepared.  The new SM makes his disappointment known rather than have a backup plan, and he definitely instills a fear in the scouts that their leadership may not count toward rank advancement when they fail.

 

Perhaps I am just slow and just seeing this, and pardon me if it has already been said; but maybe the reason for the scoutmaster saying one thing and doing another is that he does not want to look bad. In reading the last few posts I got to thinking that the reason he may support the patrol method approach, but not really implement it, is that if things fail too often it is seen as a reflection on him and understood as a learning experience for the boys. Maybe if the adults around him let him know they support the patrol method and do not hold him accountable when things fail miserably it might help him get over this need to step in.

 

Sorry if I am late to the party on this one. I tend to be a bit slow on the up take.

[Eagledad 2779]

I'm with Beav on approaching the SM. One of the considerations of just you approaching the SM or all the ASMs approaching the SM is how much influence each method has toward showing the SM the concerns. I learned as one member of our church committee that I didn't have much sway with our minister. But when the committee approached him with the same ideas, he understood better the importance of the idea to the whole group. You need to consider what is the better approach.

 

If you decide to approach the SM as a group (I did this was a back yard barbecue), then you need to discuss a strategy among the ASMs to have mainly one person presenting the concerns with the others only shaking their heads in support.

 

And, you all need to discuss and agree on what exactly are the concerns the group wants expressed so that debates don't start among the ASMs in front of the SM. Nothing kills a meeting like this more than everyone talking in different directions.

 

In truth, the ASM and SM need to have these kinds of discussions often so that everyone is comfortable discussing their opinions. The SM needs to get in the habit of asking, "What do you think?" with his ASMs. From my personal experience, that takes a lot of humility. But it also forced me to have sound logical reasoning for my approach to the program. Good communication is healthy, especially in a boy run program.

 

Barry