Forced to cross early?

[Phrogger 1]

My son started in scouts as a Wolf. This year he's in 4th grade, and is a Webelos 1. Sometime during the year, the den leader decided that the boys should finish Webelos in one year and cross over early. I only realized this when I started getting emails reminding us to work on our AOL requirements. I'm a pretty involved parent, I go to at least 80% of the meetings (my spouse does the other 20%) but I don't remember this ever being discussed, and I would not have agreed to it. We moved councils last year so when we joined we were new to the Pack and didn't know many people, so it's possible they planned it over the summer before we got here. Our Webelos 2 den crossed over in February and our Webelos 1 den is supposed to cross over in May, and join the Troop on a week-long campout in June.

 

I am not ready for this, and I don't think my son is either. He's only 10, and putting him in an overnight situation with high school age boys makes me really uncomfortable for a number of reasons: 1. He's less mature than kids his age. (He still sucks on his hands from time to time for example.) 2. A year ago he was burned out on scouts and I am worried about turning him off it completely. 3. High school boys talk about things and share pictures that aren't appropriate for elementary school kids. I don't know any of the parents in the troop or any of their kids.  But he wants to cross with his den mates and doesn't want to be left behind.

 

I feel backed into a corner here and I could use some advice.

 

Thanks.

[JasonG172 244]

Boy Scout age is what?  5th Grade?  10-11 years old, this is the norm.  When he crosses over he should cross over into a age appropriate patrol. 

I do understand your concern with the language and topics the older boys discuss, my son is 3 months into his new troop and turned 11 in March.  He doesn't look like an 11 year old when he stands next to his patrol.   

[Krampus 696]

Boy Scout age is what?  5th Grade?  10-11 years old, this is the norm.  When he crosses over he should cross over into a age appropriate patrol. 

I do understand your concern with the language and topics the older boys discuss, my son is 3 months into his new troop and turned 11 in March.  He doesn't look like an 11 year old when he stands next to his patrol.   

 

Age appropriate patrol? You are assuming all troops have new scout patrols or younger boy patrols. Some don't and start off mixed from the beginning.

 

If he's 10 and has his AOL he can join Boy Scouts in BSA's eyes.

 

@@Phrogger, I would talk to the troop and see, once he crosses over, if there's not some way he can be aligned with his friends his age.

[perdidochas 658]

My son started in scouts as a Wolf. This year he's in 4th grade, and is a Webelos 1. Sometime during the year, the den leader decided that the boys should finish Webelos in one year and cross over early. I only realized this when I started getting emails reminding us to work on our AOL requirements. I'm a pretty involved parent, I go to at least 80% of the meetings (my spouse does the other 20%) but I don't remember this ever being discussed, and I would not have agreed to it. We moved councils last year so when we joined we were new to the Pack and didn't know many people, so it's possible they planned it over the summer before we got here. Our Webelos 2 den crossed over in February and our Webelos 1 den is supposed to cross over in May, and join the Troop on a week-long campout in June.

 

I am not ready for this, and I don't think my son is either. He's only 10, and putting him in an overnight situation with high school age boys makes me really uncomfortable for a number of reasons: 1. He's less mature than kids his age. (He still sucks on his hands from time to time for example.) 2. A year ago he was burned out on scouts and I am worried about turning him off it completely. 3. High school boys talk about things and share pictures that aren't appropriate for elementary school kids. I don't know any of the parents in the troop or any of their kids.  But he wants to cross with his den mates and doesn't want to be left behind.

 

I feel backed into a corner here and I could use some advice.

 

Thanks.

 

Well, a few things. The first is that no scouts should be sharing inappropriate pictures--at least in my sons' troop (and they are the high school boys), if anything the high school aged scouts are much more discreet about their conversation than the middle school aged scouts. If the older kids are sharing inappropriate pictures, then something is majorly wrong with the troop.  My advice would be to skip summer camp this year.  I agree a 4th grader going to 5th grade is too young to be going to summer camp especially if he's an immature 4th grader.

 

Sounds to me like a Webelos den leader either has an older scout in the troop, or he is almost completely burned out.  I understand having been a WDL in that situation.  That said, my second set of Webelos crossed over in March. 

[perdidochas 658]

Boy Scout age is what?  5th Grade?  10-11 years old, this is the norm.  When he crosses over he should cross over into a age appropriate patrol. 

I do understand your concern with the language and topics the older boys discuss, my son is 3 months into his new troop and turned 11 in March.  He doesn't look like an 11 year old when he stands next to his patrol.   

 

Many units have mixed age patrols. Helps the younger scouts learn from older scouts. 

[Stosh 3452]

By the way, welcome to the forum!  I didn't realize that until I wrote my comments. 

 

 

This is a tough call as a parent.

 

Your son is stuck between a rock and a hard spot and is expected to make a mature decision that will have an impact on his social life for the next few years. 

 

Keep it in mind that as a parent you can still have some control of the situation depending on how you decide along with your son.

 

He's going to appear to be quite immature to you as a parent, and maybe it is true maybe it isn't.  Always hard to tell when you're the parent. 

 

The Cub leader is pushing for early cross-over, which takes a lot of choice out of your son's hands and he doesn't want to get left  behind by his buddies either.  That means one can't shop around for other troops, you're stuck with the one the buddies are going to.  Once one goes there, then the choice of different programs (NSP of all boys oriented together or blended patrols where the other boys in the patrol work the orientation.  Of course this could also toss the "sticking with one's buddies" in jeopardy as well if all the new guys are doled out to different patrols.  One might want to check that all out.

 

If what one thinks is the ideal for their child is not in the setup of the various troops in the area and all the dynamics don't fall precisely the way one wants them to, then the decision needs to be made, which if any of these programs can I find that will work second best for my son.  If one cannot answer that, I would check out other programs that may work better for your son.

 

If your son is into the outdoors and camping, and it's important for to your son, you may need to roll up your sleeves and put your pack on and take him into the woods yourself.  Sometimes, that's the best anyway.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Stosh

[desertrat77 1144]

My son started in scouts as a Wolf. This year he's in 4th grade, and is a Webelos 1. Sometime during the year, the den leader decided that the boys should finish Webelos in one year and cross over early. I only realized this when I started getting emails reminding us to work on our AOL requirements. I'm a pretty involved parent, I go to at least 80% of the meetings (my spouse does the other 20%) but I don't remember this ever being discussed, and I would not have agreed to it. We moved councils last year so when we joined we were new to the Pack and didn't know many people, so it's possible they planned it over the summer before we got here. Our Webelos 2 den crossed over in February and our Webelos 1 den is supposed to cross over in May, and join the Troop on a week-long campout in June.

 

I am not ready for this, and I don't think my son is either. He's only 10, and putting him in an overnight situation with high school age boys makes me really uncomfortable for a number of reasons: 1. He's less mature than kids his age. (He still sucks on his hands from time to time for example.) 2. A year ago he was burned out on scouts and I am worried about turning him off it completely. 3. High school boys talk about things and share pictures that aren't appropriate for elementary school kids. I don't know any of the parents in the troop or any of their kids.  But he wants to cross with his den mates and doesn't want to be left behind.

 

I feel backed into a corner here and I could use some advice.

 

Thanks.

Welcome to the forum!

 

I understand your concerns.   But, depending on the troop, crossing early may be the very best thing.

 

The Webs program is twice as long as it used to be.   Kids get tired.   Burned out and stalled out.   Stuck in a rut.

 

In the troop, new challenges, new faces...it could jump start your son's interest in scouting.   Being treated like a boy scout instead of a cub scout--a big difference.  

 

Here's the key thing that jumps out at me:   he wants to cross over with his pals.   Could it be he has more confidence in himself, and is looking forward to the new adventure, more so than mom/dad?   If so, then stifling his initiative by holding him back another year might hamper his interest in scouting as well as personal growth.

 

Of course I'm sitting here typing this without all of the facts.   But once upon a time I was a very shy 5th grader that crossed over from Webs to a scout troop, and it truly changed my life, for the better.   It was a fresh start.   Mom/dad/den leader weren't providing snacks...I was with my patrol, buying our food for the campout, as well as planning the menu and then cooking the food (for good or ill ).   Going on hikes.  Learning useful skills.   I knew I was on the "big boy" plan when I crossed over, and I never looked back.

Edited April 13, 2016 by desertrat77

[meyerc13 85]

Phrogger, you've gotten some great replies from the Boy Scout leaders here, I'll throw one in from the Cub Scout perspective.  My son just crossed over two weeks ago.  He is an interesting case, his birthday is 1 week after the cutoff, so he initially started Kindergarten at age 5, but turned six a few days after school started.  To make a long story short, he ended up skipping a grade, so he didn't turn 10 until a week after fifth grade started.

 

However, in Wisconsin where I live, it's quite possible for a boy to start the first grade having just turned 6 over the summer.  That means he wouldn't turn 10 (minimum age for Boy Scouts) until the summer before his fifth grade year.

 

It's certainly possible to do the full Webelos and Arrow of Light in one year.  That's how the LDS units do it, and that's how my son did it (since I wanted to keep him with his den after he skipped 2nd grade, he didn't start Webelos until the end of fourth grade, and then finished his arrow of light in March of his fifth grade year).  To do that, you have to take advantage of Webelos Adventures offered at camps, Webelos Pin Days, etc.  It isn't easy though, and takes a motivated Scout.

 

With that said, I wouldn't recommend it in most cases.  We have a big problem in Scouting with retention.  A huge chunk of Cub Scouts don't crossover into Boy Scouts.  And we lose a lot of Boy Scouts early in the program (they join, but then quit).  One of the big reasons for that is the Scouts join a Troop that isn't a good fit.  Maybe they want to do a lot of camping, but the Troop they join doesn't camp much.  Or they want to go backpacking, but the Troop they join never ventures more than 50 feet from their trailer. 

 

To counter that, one of the most important things a Webelos leader can do is expose his den to as many Troops as possible.  Even better if they can go camping with more than one of those Troops.  That might mean that they don't all crossover into the same unit.  However, I'd rather see them join a different Troop than have them quit or never join a Troop.  It is really, really tough to get in enough Troop visits in a year to make a good choice.  My son picked his Troop early on and stuck with his choice, but personally I would have liked to visit a few more that we just didn't have time to visit.

 

As pointed out above, since it's possible that some boys in a Webelos den might not be eligible to crossover until just before their fifth grade year, I think it is a bad precedent for the Den Leader to do what he is doing.  Maybe this year, all the boys are eligible to crossover, but that won't always be the case.  Also, he is really doing his den a disservice by doing this, he can do almost everything with his den that a Troop can do, so what's the rush?  Our Webelos Dens have Den names, vote for a Denner to act as a sort of patrol leader, and basically implement a mini version of Boy Scouts, with a bit of extra guidance from the Den Leaders.

 

It's a real shame, unfortunately I wonder how much you can do to change it.  If he has made up his mind and his boy is eligible to crossover, he will probably crossover.  You might try talking to the other parents, maybe they have similar concerns and would like another 6-9 months in the Pack.  If so, as long as someone steps up to serve as Den Leader you can keep some/most of the boys together.  If all of the parents are so eager to join  Boy Scouts, then maybe you should meet with the Troop leaders and discuss your concerns.  You might be surprised, while not every boy in Scouts is a saint, I think you'll find that often they are kinder and more empathetic than the typical boy that age.

[JasonG172 244]

Age appropriate patrol? You are assuming all troops have new scout patrols or younger boy patrols. Some don't and start off mixed from the beginning.

 

 

Not assuming anything, More like Hoping.  It can be pretty intense for a 10 year old keeping up with 14,15 or even 16 year old. 

 

The troop my son is in has 4 patrols, my son's make the 5th.

 

 

BTW I am a Webelo Leader

Edited April 13, 2016 by JasonG172

[Krampus 696]

Not assuming anything, More like Hoping.  It can be pretty intense for a 10 year old keeping up with 14,15 or even 16 year old. 

 

The troop my son is in has 4 patrols, my son's make the 5th.

 

In our unit we make it work with the mixed patrols. The older Scouts really take the younger ones under their wing.

 

Without orchestrating anything at the adult level, it is funny to see that the younger Scouts in a patrol will tent together while the older Scouts do the same. Rarely do you see a 17 year old and an 11 year old. When you do see it, the younger guys learn a great deal. It all depends on your older Scouts.

[JasonG172 244]

In our unit we make it work with the mixed patrols. The older Scouts really take the younger ones under their wing.

 

Ours as well, they don't just throw them into the patrol and saw see ya.  The leadership PL and ASPL have been working with them and they have another "seasoned" scout that is currently working on his project.  All these boys are fresh crossovers being led by the older boys, just not in their patrol. 

[Krampus 696]

Ours as well, they don't just throw them into the patrol and saw see ya.  The leadership PL and ASPL have been working with them and they have another "seasoned" scout that is currently working on his project.  All these boys are fresh crossovers being led by the older boys, just not in their patrol. 

 

Yup, that's the way to do it. 

 

Another way is to assign mentors withing the patrol our from outside the patrol. That works well too.

 

Dumping young kids without a life line to 1) guys their own age, or 2) making sure the older kids are being respectful and helpful, is a recipe for disaster.

[Stosh 3452]

Yup, that's the way to do it. 

 

Another way is to assign mentors withing the patrol our from outside the patrol. That works well too.

 

Dumping young kids without a life line to 1) guys their own age, or 2) making sure the older kids are being respectful and helpful, is a recipe for disaster.

I suppose one needs to do this when they don't have functional POR's that will work with the NSP's, i.e. SPL, QM, ASPL, TG, Scribe and QM for starters.  That's six boys right there that have the time to work with the needs of the NSP and the Venture patrols.  Take them out of the picture because they don't function, one is correct, it is a recipe for disaster.

 

All the mixed patrols do is cover for the non-functioning POR's.

[Krampus 696]

I suppose one needs to do this when they don't have functional POR's that will work with the NSP's, i.e. SPL, QM, ASPL, TG, Scribe and QM for starters.  That's six boys right there that have the time to work with the needs of the NSP and the Venture patrols.  Take them out of the picture because they don't function, one is correct, it is a recipe for disaster.

 

All the mixed patrols do is cover for the non-functioning POR's.

 

That's not true.

 

These are supplemental to the PL and other roles. Not every leader can be everywhere at once. These supplemental roles allow the younger Scouts to feel more connected. It puts more eyes on the situation. Why? Even your best PL is not going to see everything. Adding in these unofficial roles will help that.

 

Let's face it, technically NONE of these positions or roles should be necessary if everyone followed the Oath and Law all the time. But these are kids we are talking about, so redundancy is needed at times.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

A few thoughts.

 

1) for AOL, you "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old. (Being active means having good attendance, paying your den dues, and working on den projects.)"

 

So unless he's 10.5 at the end of 4th grade, he can't earn AOL.

 

Now my tale.

 

My son has a late birthday. He will be over 10.5 when June 1 hits. He was seriously thinking about skipping the Webelos badge and going directly to AOL so he could cross over in June and go to summer camp with big brother.  When it was pointed out he would be in the NSP and when his buddies joined  6 months later he would be in a different patrol, he decided to stay in the pack.

 

Regarding Mixed aged patrols and new Scouts. Way it worked in my old troop, the "expereinced" scouts of ages 12-14 in the patrol would buddy up with a new scout and mentor and mold them. It was usually people's first time doing servant leadership.  The PL would pick out who would work with whom.

 

When we eventually got a feeder pack, we would buddy them up at the meeting(s) before the webelos overniter so they could get comfotable with the patrol. Then on the cmapout they worked with the patrol. GREAT RECRUITING TOOL