Adult-led troops

[Hedgehog 334]

So after being involved with my troop for awhile, I have come to the realization that the troop is pretty much totally adult led.  Sure they put on the facade of being boy run.  The SPL is in front of the troop at meetings, but he is just reading off an agenda prepared by the SM.  And a big chunk of the agenda is "here is the SM to talk about XYZ".  There is also a youth "in charge" of most outings, but their job is mostly to just promote the event (again usually by reading off a script prepared by the adult in charge of the trip).

 

The thing is, the troop has an excellent program.  There are outings at least every month, the troop owns a ton of camping equipment, and there are a bunch of experienced and committed adults (even if they are the ones running the show).  The boys are having a lot of fun, probably more than they would in a "less polished" troop that actually has a boy-led program.  It is just really hard to leave a troop like my current one for one that might not have as strong of a program.

 

 

Despite what others said, you can make a difference.  The first key is you have to start with the boys.   The second key is you have to use the the programs view of itself to force the change.  Let me explain.

 

Find small areas where the boys can lead.  Talk to them about "it would be great if you guys could do...."  Attend the PLC meeting.  Make suggestions.  "Would one of the patrol leaders be able to do that?"  When the boys ask you a question, tell them it is their decision because the troop is boy led -- and then let them make the deciision.

 

Then talk the talk with the other leaders.  "I'm so glad we are boy lead, but wouldn't it be great if the boys could do [insert idea] too?"  The adults in adult led troops think they are boy led and have a very hard time responding negatively to suggestions that the boys should lead.  

 

After three years as an ASM, it warmed my heart tonight when the SPL said "we've really been working on functioning as patrols on campouts, so we should really try to have each patrol plan their own activities."      

[Stosh 3452]

They button on the right.

Just checking to see if they meant the historical traditional where the boys picked their friends or the contemporary traditional where the adults picked them.  If one were to actually get right down to the reality of most troops, there are very few "traditional" patrols out there because most troops have adult "guidance" influencing the processes somewhere along the way.  Some more than others.  It's just that by the very nature of BSA's program NSP Regular and Venturing seem to strongly suggest a layering of expertise based on experience and age.

[Krampus 696]

Just checking to see if they meant the historical traditional where the boys picked their friends or the contemporary traditional where the adults picked them.  If one were to actually get right down to the reality of most troops, there are very few "traditional" patrols out there because most troops have adult "guidance" influencing the processes somewhere along the way.  Some more than others.  It's just that by the very nature of BSA's program NSP Regular and Venturing seem to strongly suggest a layering of expertise based on experience and age.

Heck, we didn't do the B-P method when *I* was in Scouts. You were assigned a patrol and you liked it, made friends if you didn't know guys and didn't complain if you had problems.

 

Now we coddle and tuck them in at night...two deep, of course.

[Stosh 3452]

Heck, we didn't do the B-P method when *I* was in Scouts. You were assigned a patrol and you liked it, made friends if you didn't know guys and didn't complain if you had problems.

 

Now we coddle and tuck them in at night...two deep, of course.

 

So, how did you get the school in the winter? 

[Krampus 696]

So, how did you get the school in the winter? 

After third grade we went straight in to the adult world earning a living. But for those few years we walked 7 miles up hill both ways.

[TAHAWK 1420]

Well, the league may lose it's status by default. But the kids are having fun and maybe learning to hit against a really good pitcher.

But, wait! Is that little Johnny's dad stepping up to the plate as his designated hitter?

Soon the kids are just bat boys in an adult league.

[Eagledad 2777]

Just checking to see if they meant the historical traditional where the boys picked their friends or the contemporary traditional where the adults picked them.  

You're just kidding yourself stosh. All troops are designed by the adults, so whether they choose NSPs patrols or traditional mixed patrols, the adults set that style in place. Lets not demonize one style over the other because the adult personalities and situations are very important to the performance of their troop. Are adults of a successful program supposed to change to be politically correct?

 

Better to learn the dynamics of growth from the different styles of patrols so they can be applied appropriately to the circumstances of the environment and characteristics of the adults and scouts in the unit. 

 

Barry

[Krampus 696]

Better to learn the dynamics of growth from the different styles of patrols so they can be applied appropriately to the circumstances of the environment and characteristics of the adults and scouts in the unit. 

 

 

I would agree. In the past, other SMs in our unit have changed the patrol construct to suit their vision and, presumably, how they *think* the unit will function in such a construct. They each claim their system (e.g., NSP, older boy/younger boy, mixed) has worked. In reality they all have not. Each has had their own successes and failures.

 

In our experience the NSP was great at getting Scouts to FC fast, however, the quality suffered despite having a great new Scout program. The down side was that this system created a "Been there, done that" mentality which caused Scouts to check out from 14-16. They had no idea what came next and how to work within an older boy unit.

 

Went to mixed patrols and it solved that issue. Guys were engaged longer in their timeline.

[perdidochas 658]

After third grade we went straight in to the adult world earning a living. But for those few years we walked 7 miles up hill both ways.

In the snow in the morning, and 100 degree heat in the afternoon.

[Eagledad 2777]

It kind of gets back to that if the program is fun and not causing harm, is it a good program? One thing national knows is the odds of a scout quitting one troop and joining another is very small. I don't know that number, but from my experience a District Membership Chairman, I would say it's less than 10 percent. So we have to ask ourselves, does a successful very adult run troop have value for the scouts in that program?

 

I can't imagine that a boy doesn't grow even a little bit in the most adult run program. 

 

As a volunteer for the district or council, you hope that the troop will get adults who are willing to train, learn, grow and change. Experience is everything for growing and improving a program. Some adults learn and change and some don't, but the saying, "Don't cause more harm" is important for districts and Councils managing units. 

 

Barry

[Krampus 696]

I can't imagine that a boy doesn't grow even a little bit in the most adult run program. 

 

 

Growth will happen, but what kind of growth will occur?

 

Will the boys learn to plan for themselves? Nope.

 

Will the boys learn how to cook, clean or manage small and large groups? Nein.

 

Will they learn that, no matter what they forget or fail to bring, someone else will always be there to cover them? BINGO!!!

 

Those kids will have fun to be certain. Ask anyone if they'd rather have a vacation where everything is managed a la cruise ship style, or if they'd rather plan out and do everything themselves. They will take the former every time. NOW ask them under which system would they learn the most to eventually be self-sufficient, productive members of society. They will pick the latter...unless they are totally brainwashed Nanny-Staters.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Krampus

[Eagledad 2777]

Growth will happen, but what kind of growth will occur?

 

 

It's a tough question. Can you live with this or should those boys miss any kind scouting experience to save the integrity of scouting? It's nothing new, even Badon Powell and Hillcourt struggled with this frustration. 

 

Barry

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

In reference to the type of patrols, i.e.  Traditional vs NSP, I think it depends on the situation. Yes you heard me, It depends on the situation. How did I come about this, talking to a Scout. 

 

Chatting with son, he commented how he thinks there may be a possibility that we could go back to NSPs, or putting them in patrols of 5-6 new scouts to 2-3 "older" Scouts, and have our current older Scout patrol reform as a venture patrol. I asked him why did he think it would work this time, when he it's not working now? He said that the NSP he was first in worked OK, and that was because 1/2 came from 1 pack and the other 1/2 came form another, and both dens had some interactions with each other via day camp and council camping events. So it was easier to work together.

 

BUT the current NSP is much different.  Members come from 4 different packs (5 different dens since 1 moved up early). And wth that many differences of how Scouts should be, its causing a problem.

 

And thinking about it, he's right. My son's NSP did have a lot in common despite being in 2 different packs. Both started the transition process as soon as they turned Webelos. Both packs had interaction on the district/council level activities, mostly due to the fact that one pack essentially split form the other, so the leaders of both packs were friends. But the current NSP is a conglomerate. Some of the guys had minimal interaction with one another at district and council events, so they didn't get the chance to know each other prior to joining. And the transition process varied.Two packs started the process to transitioning to Boy Scouts beginning of the first year as Webelos, one waited until 1/2 way through the first year, and the 4th didn't begin the transisition until 2 or 3 months before Crossover! that many differences will cause chaos. Then add in ineffective TGs, and it makes it worse.

 

I always said being a SM or ASM is an art and not a science. One size does not fit all. But most importantly LISTEN TO YOUR SCOUTS! They know better than the adults what is going on, who are strong leaders and who are weak. BUT YOU CAN'T INTERFERE!

[Stosh 3452]

@@Eagle94-A1  I think that much of what your son is identifying is why BSA uses the terminology it does in describing the different patrols.  I think that a troop of all Regular Patrols might get buy but blending 6th grade kids with high school kids does a disservice to both the groups.  Thus the New Scouts Patrol and the older boy Venture Patrols.  Obvious the New Scout Patrol has a totally different focus because of it's special needs to bond together and gel as a group of boys coming from a unique non-Boy Scout situation.  Either they have had no scouting experience or they have had Cub Scouting.  Neither of which prepares them for orientation into the Boy Scout level program.  So maybe an older PL will step in and help, maybe a qualified functional TG would be necessary, to have a few of the older boys come out of the Regular Patrols to help out with the new guys on the block.

 

Then one has the Regular Patrols.  I would assume this would be also referred to as the Traditional Patrols, but definition might vary from one person to the next.  This would be when the New Scouts Patrol has been oriented, has their feet on the ground, a few rank advancements under their belt, a week at summer camp, and they have had an opportunity to gel.  So the PL returns back to his Regular Patrol, because his POR is fulfilled or whatever, he could stay on if he wanted to.  The TG does the same, he's done with his duties for that patrol and can go back, too.  But if the boys really like him, he could stay on now that the New Scouts Patrol gets changed in title only to a Regular Patrol.  They aren't the new guy on the block anymore.  They're now regular guys like the rest.

 

So then when the boys get up to 14-15 years of age, they did their helping out the NSP's and getting their rank advancement done in the Regular Patrols, but now 4 times at the same summer camp isn't enough pizazz anymore and they want more.  Well there's no younger boys in their troop to worry about so they can now focus on the level of activities that befit the older guys.  They don't have to leave any younger boys behind while they go off to BWCA and they don't have to go to summer camp anymore unless it be on the other side of the country.  These boys are the boys that will do a 50 miler on a 3-day weekend of canoeing or biking on a regular basis, not just a one-time-only thing to get a patch.  Maybe they'll just take a week and go fishing and hang out with each other for a week.  Maybe they'll go to Washington DC to check out the sites without having to worry about getting to Jambo.

 

Yes there's a bit of interplay between the different Patrols, but the New Scouts and Venture patrols need special attention because of their unique situation. 

 

So just as an example, assume that one is the PL of a "Tradtiional" Patrol.  There are 7 other boys.  One in 6th grade, one in 7th grade, one in 8th grade, one in 9th grade  one in 10 grade, one in 11th grade and one in 12th grade.  So everyone sits down and they are gong to plan their summer week of scouting.  Well some of the boys are too young for Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base and Jambo, so those items are off the table.  In order to maintain the integrity of the patrol, it has to resolve itself down to the lowest common denominator.  The boys will all be going to summer camp at the council camp.... except the older boys who will find an excuse to save their money for the "fumes". 

 

So as another example, assume that one is the PL of a Venture Patrol where everyone is 15-17 years of age.  What options are on the table for ALL THE BOYS IN THE PATROL?  No need to ad hoc the patrol with others, no need to leave any patrol buddies behind, everyone is equally trained and can handle the big treks.  All of a sudden the "fumes" seem to dissipate rather quickly.

 

I learned how this works in my adult-led troop I started with .  We traveled half way across the country to attend a non-council camp for fun.  When we got there the SM signed up ALL THE OLDER BOYS to go off site for the special adventures open to the older boys.  All the young boys stayed in camp with absolutely no youth leadership.  The SM and 1 ASM had a blast, and the other 3 ASM's that got left babysitting the boys for a week.  When we got home I found a new troop.  That troop also lost about 1/3-1/2 of their young boys, too.

[Krampus 696]

It's a tough question. Can you live with this or should those boys miss any kind scouting experience to save the integrity of scouting? It's nothing new, even Badon Powell and Hillcourt struggled with this frustration. 

 

Barry

 

Well, that's interesting because my family answered that question when we crossed over. We could have gone with the one of the mega troops (120+) in our area that use the "boy led" catch phrase like Nike uses "Just Do It", but we decided to join a smaller (50-75) person troop where the boys ran the show. Still went and did 90% of the fun stuff the mega troop did. In fact, we got in to some things they couldn't because they were too big.

 

During the last seven years my kid has had the opportunity to learn and grow. He's a real leader with strong planning and outdoor skills. Rather than have adults do stuff for him he's done them for himself. He's not felt he miss out on anything.

 

How do I know the difference. I look in Scouting Magazine and see my kid's Eagle project listed in their before/after section and just smile. The entire thing was planned soup to nuts by him. Pouring concrete, laying stone, ordering materials, seeking funding, managing Sweet 16 and all the other stuff...all him.

 

And then I look at the Eagle projects from the mega troop. A simple park bench in a park that looks like it came from a kit and assembled by 4 adults and 4 Scouts. I just sit back and smile.