Uniforms and Scout Spirit

[Krampus 696]

Hazing is defined as: humiliating and sometimes dangerous initiation rituals, especially as imposed on college students seeking membership to a fraternity or sorority. The imposition of strenuous, often humiliating, tasks as part of a program of rigorous physical training and initiation.

Push ups, yes, that could be seen as hazing unless you are on a sports team. I hate to think we've come to realize what South Park lampooned as "Sarcastiball", where we've taken all the difficulty out of sports (or whatever) just because Timmy feels "hazed" because he's asked to put up chairs for wearing black socks instead of his Scout socks, or re-clean his patrol pot because there's still caked-on chilli in the pot. That's not hazing, that's a consequence of not complying with the rules.

 

I wouldn't even mention frat hazing. I was in a frat in college in the 1980s. I hate to tell you the stuff I had to endure that would most likely get folks arrested these days. 

 

One could argue that any consequence could be construed by someone humiliating. Being asked to do KP correctly might embarrass Timmy but not Johnny. Heck, I had a kid once that considered saying the Scout Oath in front of other people to be embarrassing, yet the kid who stuttered seemed to manage it just fine. 

 

My troop doesn't do uniform inspections. In the nuclear fireball that is my troops old policies and procedures, the PLC hasn't gotten around to that yet. As for cleaning, the SPL assigns a different patrol each week to be the service patrol, which involves vacuuming and reseting the meeting room.

Yup, we have that too. And the guys who join that patrol to help clean after the meeting are the guys who talked during the meeting or acted in an un-Scouting fashion. Usually just 1-2 and not every meeting, but once in a while. No one has ever gone to psychiatric counseling as a result. We did have one kid that refused to help and we had an impromptu SMC to discuss his actions and consequences. Parents supported it.

 

Like I said, for the most part our parents support the consequences we dish out. They expect the same from their kids at home. Any parents who don't like it -- and there have been a handful in the 12 years I have been here -- find another local troop that's more touchy-feeley and will hand out cookies and pat their kid on the head as they leave no matter that they do.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Krampus

[Sentinel947 1205]

Push ups, yes, that could be seen as hazing unless you are on a sports team. I hate to think we've come to realize what South Park lampooned as "Sarcastiball", where we've taken all the difficulty out of sports (or whatever) just because Timmy feels "hazed" because he's asked to put up chairs for wearing black socks instead of his Scout socks, or re-clean his patrol pot because there's still caked-on chilli in the pot. That's not hazing, that's a consequence of not complying with the rules.

 

I wouldn't even mention frat hazing. I was in a frat in college in the 1980s. I hate to tell you the stuff I had to endure that would most likely get folks arrested these days. 

 

One could argue that any consequence could be construed by someone humiliating. Being asked to do KP correctly might embarrass Timmy but not Johnny. Heck, I had a kid once that considered saying the Scout Oath in front of other people to be embarrassing, yet the kid who stuttered seemed to manage it just fine. 

 

Yup, we have that too. And the guys who join that patrol to help clean after the meeting are the guys who talked during the meeting or acted in an un-Scouting fashion. Usually just 1-2 and not every meeting, but once in a while. No one has ever gone to psychiatric counseling as a result. We did have one kid that refused to help and we had an impromptu SMC to discuss his actions and consequences. Parents supported it.

 

Like I said, for the most part our parents support the consequences we dish out. They expect the same from their kids at home. Any parents who don't like it -- and there have been a handful in the 12 years I have been here -- find another local troop that's more touchy-feeley and will hand out cookies and pat their kid on the head as they leave no matter that they do.

@Krampus: All I'm saying is words have a definition. There's definitely situations and grey zones to these things. Also, I'm doing my best to not create straw men in my reasoning, call me out if you see any. Hay is for horses.  

 

One could argue that any consequence is humiliating, but the standard is what a reasonable person finds to be humiliating. (At least if you apply the legal principles around harassment.) 

 

I mentioned frat hazing because it's in the definitions of the online dictionary I pulled the definition from. 

 

We agree on cleaning the dishes, or putting up chairs. I'm not advocating for black and white rules on what is and is not hazing. I'm not advocating for removal of any and all consequences to misbehavior in fear of embarrassing people. There are some folks out there who are going to take offense at anything, or are self conscious, we have to adjust and deal with that. 

 

We all have to make that appropriateness of punishment judgment on the spot, using our best judgments. Therefore it's important to understand the definition of hazing, so we can evaluate what is and what is not hazing. Often if I am going to levy consequences for behavior or my Scouts want to for some infraction I think of a few principles:

• What is the problem?
• What is the solution?
• Are there other ways to correct the problem?
• Would a reasonable person consider this hazing or bullying?
• What keeps best with the spirit of the Scout Oath and Law?
• How will parents perceive this?
• Will it actually achieve the desired effect?

   

  For the scout who doesn't clean his dishes. The PL going "Hey, Timmy can you clean it again? It has chili in it." It's the solution to the problem. It shouldn't be considered hazing, it's not strenuous, it shouldn't be humiliating (unless the PL makes it so (think Gunny from Full Metal Jacket) and it shouldn't involve bullying or imbalance of power, because any other patrol member would be subject to it if they failed to clean the chili out of the pot. There are no better ways to fix that problem, it fits with the Oath and Law, the parents Shouldn't have an issue and it should achieve the desired effect. 

At the risk of derailing this thread, that's the last bit I'm going to say about it in this thread. (Hold me to it!) 

 

Sentinel947

[Krampus 696]

A the risk of derailing this thread, that's the last bit I'm going to say about it in this thread. (Hold me to it!) 

Sentinel947

 

ROFL...we mostly agree. I'm going to be the School of Hard Knocks guy and go with a few consequences just as long as we are not bullying anyone.

 

I remember getting singled out for talking in a school assembly in 3rd grade...right in front of everyone! I can tell you I NEVER spoke during an assembly until I was maybe in high school. Learned my lesson and never say a shrink once.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Krampus

[TAHAWK 1420]

even that rings of hazing to me....

"Prepared for life."

 

In the adult world, failing to follow the "rules" typically results in negative consequences.

 

An alternative in "patrol competition" would be to have positive consequences for those who follow the rules.

[Krampus 696]

"Prepared for life."

 

In the adult world, failing to follow the "rules" typically results in negative consequences.

 

Speaking of consequences....reminds me when we were at CDB several years ago they have a local farmer/rancher who does the horsemanship and animal husbandry MBs. For the latter, he took a group of Scouts out in to the field and they were going to castrate a steer. A Scouter Helicopter mom went with the group (as did I and a few others who were helping the farmer). This guy had a rather direct approach with the Scouts, no bull (pardon the pun) just very direct.

 

When the mom realized what was going to happen, she started to (aggressively) question whether or not this was an appropriate activity for the 10 boys (all 16 or older, btw). The farmer just looked at her, looked up to the sky (as if to ask God for strength) and he said, "Ma'am, if you'd like to take your boy and not witness this well then you are welcome to. He will miss out as a consequence and will not pass my class." The mom left, dragging the son (who later came back after a very loud argument with mom in the parking lot).

 

Sadly, the steer is now a bull despite mom's objections. The irony is that I'll bet here husband has more in common with the bull than with the steer.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Krampus

[blw2 433]

If a Scout does not clean his mess kit properly and he's asked to clean it again, is that hazing? Whenever a Scout doesn't meet a requirement (uniform), simply having a remediation activity as a consequence is not hazing in my book. Push ups? Sure. Singing for lost gear? If voluntary, I don't see the issue. Hanging around for clean up if you act up? Not hazing in my book, it's a consequence of poor Scout behavior.

 

 

Interesting side track I think, but it does apply to uniforming, and how at least one troop encourages uniform wear....

my 2 cents

re-cleaning a mess kit.... that's just correcting a mistake, or correcting something done wrong, or maybe practicing a skill to learn it

push-ups and singing - maybe ok in my personal opinion depending on how and the situation... BUT clearly hazing in my book, even if done light heartedly

Making them do a chore such as clean up after the meeting - smells like punishment to me, which is sneaking around close to hazing in my book.  Not necessarily inappropriate in my personal opinion, but still hazing and therefore inappropriate in scouting... unless it was that scout's turn to do it anyway...

[TAHAWK 1420]

"Discipline must be constructive.

Discipline used in Scouting must be constructive and reflect Scouting’s values. Corporal punishment is never permitted. Disciplinary activities involving isolation, humiliation, or ridicule are prohibited. Examples of positive discipline include verbal praise and high fives."

[Stosh 3452]

Negative discipline applied incorrectly can create an adversarial situation... any one with passive aggressive tendencies will be there someday to remind one of that.

[Krampus 696]

Interesting side track I think, but it does apply to uniforming, and how at least one troop encourages uniform wear....

my 2 cents

re-cleaning a mess kit.... that's just correcting a mistake, or correcting something done wrong, or maybe practicing a skill to learn it

push-ups and singing - maybe ok in my personal opinion depending on how and the situation... BUT clearly hazing in my book, even if done light heartedly

Making them do a chore such as clean up after the meeting - smells like punishment to me, which is sneaking around close to hazing in my book.  Not necessarily inappropriate in my personal opinion, but still hazing and therefore inappropriate in scouting... unless it was that scout's turn to do it anyway...

 

How is having kids clean up a meeting place in your CO hazing? They acted un-Scoutlike and there's a consequence. We didn't single out little Timmy to do it on his own. He's been asked to help out (a Scout is helpful). We are not giving him a wedgy, nor asking him to recite the Scout Oath to a burning match, nor walk across firey coals; we are simply asking him to help out. Period. 

 

Let's not become so sensitive to holding our kids to consequences that the simple act of helping out is seen as hazing because Timmy cannot show respect during a troop meeting.

 

Timmy is not going to get praise for interrupting a meeting or high fives for being a disruption during the meeting. He WILL get praise and high fives for helping the service patrol clean up after the meeting. He's not been singled out or humiliated.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Krampus

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I like da new eye-roll emoji. 

 

Or is it this one?

 

Please, folks, in lots of states Hazing is a crime.   It has a legal definition.  It can even be a felony.

 

If yeh accuse a fellow scouter of hazing you are accusing them of committing a crime.  That can be slander or libel.   Yeh never, ever want to go there.

 

Say that yeh don't like makin' kids do push-ups.  Say that yeh think singin' is a bad idea.   Say that yeh don't believe givin' kids KP is consistent with Scoutin' values, whatever.

 

Don't say that something is "hazing" when it comes nowhere near da legal definition.   It doesn't do any of us any favors, eh?

 

Beavah

[TAHAWK 1420]

Lawyern'  ?   

 

(Sorry,  Poor impulse control.)

 

Ohio Revised Code 2903.31 Hazing.

 

 

(A) As used in this section, "hazing" means doing any act or coercing another, including the victim, to do any act of initiation into any student or other organization that causes or creates a substantial risk of causing mental or physical harm to any person.

(B)

(1) No person shall recklessly participate in the hazing of another.

(2) No administrator, employee, or faculty member of any primary, secondary, or post-secondary school or of any other educational institution, public or private, shall recklessly permit the hazing of any person.

 

© Whoever violates this section is guilty of hazing, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

Effective Date: 03-03-1983

Edited April 18, 2016 by TAHAWK

[Stosh 3452]

Only Indiana and Michigan have felony level punishment for hazing.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/08/anti-hazing-laws-penalties_n_4562555.html

 

Bullying punishment is restricted mainly within schools, not elsewhere.

 

http://education.findlaw.com/student-conduct-and-discipline/bullying.html

[TAHAWK 1420]

The Michigan law makes hazing in school a crime only if it results in physical injury. serious impairment of a bodily function, or death,  conduct that was already criminalized.  The Michigan statute is political theater/

 

The Indiana law does make hazing a misdemeanor even when no injury results.  It makes hazing a felony when the conduct was already a felony under Indiana law.  The crime of Hazing is not restricted to schools.