Swords

[Stosh 3452]

  If one has something to say, say it.  If not, remember, Silence is Golden. 

 

An individual's free speech is protected and I will defend it whether I agree with it or not.  Anonymous free speech is not protected by the Constitution.

[Krampus 696]

Stosh, I hear what you are saying and I agree to a point. In this situation, we do not know why the person expressed concern. I personally do not have a problem with the idea of the ceremony, but we were provided with few details nor do we know what the real complaint is. Many are projecting their speculation of why the person complained even to the point of calling them a bully. This is wrong. Good people can disagree on specifics and what or how things should be done. Expressing that disagreement is not bullying, nor is it intolerant unless as you point out it is based on hate, or in my opinion the enabling of malice.

"Good people" can also show appreciation for what someone is doing -- trying to make a memorable moment for their son/grandson -- and can simply show gratitude instead of complaining.

 

It cuts both ways. They are a bully because rather than going to the person who performed the ceremony AND the CM, they went to the CM. Second, why complain? Did they think kids will re-enact the scene with a REAL sword? If so, I'd like to see the video games and TV shows they let their kid watch. Careful, I hear that Minecraft has led to a rash of pick axe violence on playgrounds.

 

I called them a bully because those are bully tactics. "Good people" would thank the person for what they did, ask if they could talk to the presenter and CM later in private and have a discussion (not complaint) about why they think the ceremony was improper. At the same time the CM and presenter can quote back BSA rules and regulations to show that the event was allowable. Then they can have a meaningful discussion.

 

But this method was, well, under-handed at best.

[CalicoPenn 729]

I suspect the term bully is being used because of the perceived superiority of a former area-level (read national) professional scouter and the assumption that it's not just a simple complaint but a bit of tossing his weight around as well.  However, it's a valid point that the term is misplaced - we don't know the circumstances of how the complaint was actually delivered or whether the Cubmaster just assumed there was an implied threat because of the complainers former position.

 

That being said, unless the Cubmaster is getting multiple complaints from multiple parents, or if it's a breaking of an actual policy that they can prove up with official BSA documentation, then the Cubmaster should be politely listening, take it under advisement and perhaps discuss at a leader's meeting or committee meeting - and should be backing up his volunteer.

[Eagledad 2777]

That being said, unless the Cubmaster is getting multiple complaints from multiple parents, or if it's a breaking of an actual policy that they can prove up with official BSA documentation, then the Cubmaster should be politely listening, take it under advisement and perhaps discuss at a leader's meeting or committee meeting - and should be backing up his volunteer.

Well said. This also applies with Scoutmasters who are often confronted by parents with questions and opinions. Most of the time parents just need a little education to understand the bigger picture. Once in a while they make a point worth pondering.

 

Barry

[Stosh 3452]

Is there a rule against using swords in Cub Scout ceremonies? I did a great knighting ceremony in February, but someone complained to the Cubmaster, so I couldn't repeat the ceremony this month. The Someone used to be a professional scouter at the area level, retired. His grandson is in my pack. He knows everything there is to know about Scouting. Which is annoying because I think I know everything there is to know about Scouting.  If it makes a difference: yes, it was a real sword, but no, it was not sharp. That is: the blade had no edge. I had about as much chance of accidentally hurting this boy with this sword as I did if it had been a baseball bat. That might be a good idea: a knighting ceremony with a baseball bat! What do you think?

 

 

I suspect the term bully is being used because of the perceived superiority of a former area-level (read national) professional scouter and the assumption that it's not just a simple complaint but a bit of tossing his weight around as well.  However, it's a valid point that the term is misplaced - we don't know the circumstances of how the complaint was actually delivered or whether the Cubmaster just assumed there was an implied threat because of the complainers former position.

 

That being said, unless the Cubmaster is getting multiple complaints from multiple parents, or if it's a breaking of an actual policy that they can prove up with official BSA documentation, then the Cubmaster should be politely listening, take it under advisement and perhaps discuss at a leader's meeting or committee meeting - and should be backing up his volunteer.

 

As a retired professional scouter, he/she should know the rules and be able to research the source of his concern before speaking to the CC (which he didn't do!).  Obviously without documentation one can always assume he/she does NOT know everything there is to know about scouting.  Thus the political strutting going on can easily be perceived as bullying the CM.

 

And yes, the CC's servant leadership role is to support his people and take care of his people, i.e. the CM who in turn has a servant leadership responsibility to take care of his DL's and staff.  If the person as strayed from the policy, a gentle reminder with a kind word will most often straighten things out.  At least that's been my experience.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Stosh

[RichardB 219]

Shouldn't the real question be:   So where is the Knighting Program found in Cub Scout program material that calls for the use of a sword?  Or is it something the OP or some legacy volunteer made up?  To the best of my knowledge nowhere in the program do we use swords.   For Bears and Above we teach safe use of knives.    

 

Reacting to being told something looked like a bad idea so don't do it does not mean there needs to be a rule to point to does it?  See preface to the GTSS:  http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx 

 

and I'd also point out the BSA policy on knives in both the Boy Scout Handbook and the GTSS has been changed:   http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss08.aspx#f 

 

Knives

 

A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. The BSA believes choosing the right equipment for the job at hand is the best answer to the question of what specific knife should be used. We are aware that many councils or camps may have limits on the type or style of knife that should be used. The BSA neither encourages nor bans fixed-blade knives nor do we set a limit on blade length. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.

Remember—knives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft.

[MattR 2659]

Why burn bridges over this one comment? It's fairly clear the sword is okay to use. The problem is grandpa (Someone). Maybe he was just having a bad day. He is not a bully and doesn't need a dressing down over this. Yes, he picked a fight. Does that mean anyone has to respond to it? If courtesy and friendship are really important then how about trying to find common ground first? Sure, this guy might be a real thorn, but maybe he's not and all the experience he has might be useful. This is why I suggested finding a way for him  to save face.

[gumbymaster 98]

  If one has something to say, say it.  If not, remember, Silence is Golden. 

 

An individual's free speech is protected and I will defend it whether I agree with it or not.  Anonymous free speech is not protected by the Constitution.

 

I'll disagree with you on this one @@Stosh. The Supreme Court has upheld that Anonymous free speech is protected.

https://www.eff.org/issues/anonymity

 

Without anonymous speech, our founding fathers would have been tried and hung for treason, long before the country could be formed.

 

Now, all that being said, is really that the speech is protected from infringement from the Government.  For better or worse, there is no such prohibition on private individuals, societies, etc. from infringing on that speech - thus why activists take to attacking and shaming the supporters (boycotting advertisers, social media protests, etc) of the unpopular speech, since the Government won't/can't stop it - which admittedly is their free speech right to do.  And round and round we go.

 

Leaving all of this, and returning to the topic at hand ...

 

My point was really that we just don't know what is behind the original request without talking with the person who made the complaint.  Maybe they really are a know-it-all seasoned scouter who may or may not be up to date with the current guidelines, maybe they are just a mom who's been trying to talk her child out of wanting a really cool sword to hang in their room, or maybe it is someone who lost a loved one in an ISIS beheading and swords are beyond their coping mechanism.

 

The fact that they complain, even anonymously, does not by itself make them a bully, nor even a political correctness junkie.  As a leader we should address the concerns of the adults and parents of our units - that doesn't make them right, we don't have to accept their concern as forcing us to change our plans - but it would still deserve consideration.

Edited March 18, 2016 by gumbymaster

[Stosh 3452]

Unless one is going to challenge me to my face, they are wasting their words.  Their free speech is worth every penny of it.

[qwazse 4342]

Shouldn't the real question be:   So where is the Knighting Program found in Cub Scout program material that calls for the use of a sword?  Or is it something the OP or some legacy volunteer made up?  To the best of my knowledge nowhere in the program do we use swords.   For Bears and Above we teach safe use of knives.    

...

@@RichardB, I think the issue is that throughout the Cub program, parents are encouraged to use their creativity, theater and authenticity. From that is where they feel they have latitude.

 

I do agree that the preface to the G2SS is often overlooked in many of these considerations. But, I can see, in this context, it can support either side's perception.

 

The goal should be not to choose sides, but to use that preface to think through a novel situation together.

 

(I still would love to hear the outcome on that melon. Better yet, picture please! )

[CalicoPenn 729]

Shouldn't the real question be:   So where is the Knighting Program found in Cub Scout program material that calls for the use of a sword?  Or is it something the OP or some legacy volunteer made up?  To the best of my knowledge nowhere in the program do we use swords.   For Bears and Above we teach safe use of knives.    

 

 

 

Fair question - and my answer would be to search Cub Scout Knighting Ceremony which will lead to a pdf on the Scouting.org site from the 2012 Cub Scout Meeting Guide, month of July titled "July Courage" for Cubs in Shining Armor which gives a complete script for a knighting ceremony that calls for a fake sword.  While I'm sure the argument can be made that fake sword means some sword-looking wooden object wrapped in tin foil or painted silver, it can also mean a reproduction sword (reproduction is a synonym for fake) which could very well be (and is most likely in the US) the sword used in this particular ceremony.  If this ceremony is a legacy, it's a legacy of an official BSA program guide for Cub Scouts where the use of swords in a knighting ceremony is suggested - and it's not as if it's from 1965 when we were "less enlightened" - it is from 2012 - less than 4 years ago.

[Rick_in_CA 401]

It's fairly clear the sword is okay to use.

It isn't to me. All we know from the OP was an objection was raised. We don't know what the objection was. It is very possible that the objection was that the sword was illegal (my pack meets in a school here in CA, bringing any steel sword (sharp or not) onto school grounds would be a crime).

 

I refuse to condemn the complaint, or to call anyone a bully here without more information.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

In regards to Knights and Cubs, I guess we could go all the way back to our Founder, who in 1907 Was only LtGen SIR (emphasis Robert Stephen Smyth Baden Powell, CB (Companion in the Most Honorable Order of the Bath). By the time Cub Scouts was first established in 1916, BP was promoted to a KCB ( Knight Commander in the Most Honorable Order of the Bath), and had the KCVO (Knight Commander in the Royal Victorian Order) and was a  KStJ ( Knight of Justice in the Most Veneralable Order of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem)              

 

So our founder was a knight before becoming a Baron.

 

BP used knights throughout his scouting literature. You can see some of his artwork if you google it.

 

As for the use of Knights in BSA, I remember Green Bar Bill using BP's Code of Chivarly in the handbooks.

 

Apparently the new CS program incorporates Knights in its program http://www.scouting.org/filestore/cubscouts/pdf/YEAR2/310-842%2815%29_November%20Courteous_WEB.pdf

 

I've seen lots of knights in Cub Scouts throughout the years, including NCS stuff on Chivalry.

[SSScout 1615]

EGAD!! Three pages on whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous protestors or by ignoring them end it.... Or something.

 

1) Swords are , by definition, weapons.  If fake or replica, then they are a FAKE or REPLICA weapon.  Perhaps the item in question was illegally on the premises, perhaps a moot point.  Should we be dealing with weapons, real or toy?  Another discussion. What is the purpose?    Archery and BB guns are skills to be mastered, used in safety.

2) A sword is a very big knife.  BSA does deal with knives and their safe use.  Even really big ones.

3)Cub Scouts (and Boy Scouts)  use to use the idea of Knights and Chivalry epically in their programs and activities. This has been mentioned.  Knighting a Cub Scout?  Into what part of Cub Scouting?  What award?  Wear it where on the uni?  Or just for fun?   CSDC coming up.... My good wife was CSDC Queen for the Knights of the Round Cub Table. I was Sir Cumference. My buddy was Sir Pentine....

4)  Parent with a problem needs to be listened to courteously and questioned politely so as to make no mistake about their discomfort.  Can it be explained?  Is there a different understanding that someone missed?  Value to be found, none the less, despite the difference in view?   Rule to be cited? Perhaps something can be learned from their perspective.  

5)  As for the danger involved in handling a dull sword replica around Cubs,   there was once a Blue Knight in our area that did a really fine presentation in full knight regalia/armor about the dangers of child abuse, on line problems, etc.  He had a two handed Clamor, and the kids loved it when he unsheathed it.  Until a school principal reminded him of the rule about knives in school, and they found out he had other legal problems which I will not propound here, and so we no longer have the Blue Knight in our schools.... 

6)   Once upon a time, the sword was not only a weapon, but a piece of male fashion. No English gentleman would be without one, whether he was able/willing to use it or not.   And so, when  Quakers declared their aversion to violent settlement of any differences of opinion, when William Penn became convinced of the Quaker faith, and asked George Fox if he (Penn) could still wear his sword, Fox reportedly  replied: " wear it as long as thou canst".  

7)  What is the lesson to be learned?  Or is it merely some form of  (dare I say it) "showing off?  

 

See you on the trail....

[qwazse 4342]

... I was Sir Cumference ...

Royalty sure gets around.