How long is too long to wait for Board of Review

[Sentinel947 1205]

Yes, you are right. I was very conscious of the guidelines while trying the idea. But it was important to me at the time that scout responsibilities be pushed as far as it could. I was passionate about scout independence and responsibility at the time. The scouts roles were limited and watched closely. As I said, the real challenge was finding the scouts with the time. I think that, more than the BSA guidelines, is why the experiment faded out. By the way, the DE and District Commissioner knew we were trying it and were guiding us to try and prevent us from stepping out of line. 

 

Barry

Wasn't Scouts on BOR's pretty commonplace in the early BSA? Why did they go away from that? 

[Stosh 3452]

Yes, you are right. I was very conscious of the guidelines while trying the idea. But it was important to me at the time that scout responsibilities be pushed as far as it could. I was passionate about scout independence and responsibility at the time. The scouts roles were limited and watched closely. As I said, the real challenge was finding the scouts with the time. I think that, more than the BSA guidelines, is why the experiment faded out. By the way, the DE and District Commissioner knew we were trying it and were guiding us to try and prevent us from stepping out of line. 

 

Barry

 

I for one am never judgmental of other people's tries,   Tomorrow's traditions are today's new ideas.  I for one would like to have the PL sit in on the BOR's in the same way as the SM sits in on the EBOR's. 

 

Wasn't Scouts on BOR's pretty commonplace in the early BSA? Why did they go away from that? 

 

I don't think in the really early years of Scouting it was commonplace.  The "board" of review was more of an SE interview than having any board meeting.  I wouldn't have any problem with scouts involved on the BOR's especially the PL of the boy advancing.  SPL if the boy is a PL, SM if the boy is the SPL.

[Krampus 696]

I was the SM of a large troop and we do our SM conferences and BOR at the request of scouts. They usually didn't get a conference that day, but they might. Some folks here like to talk the big talk of their boy run or patrol method program, but I wonder sometimes. What takes up so much of your SM's time during a meeting?

 

In our unit it is mainly coverage. Due to adult travel and other activities, and given the nature of some of our meetings (patrols break up to do their own thing, many times outdoors) we have to have eyeballs on things. Some of these activities require adults who are specially trained. Sometimes we have events where third parties are invited and we need adults there to manage/observe.

 

Our unit does not simply sit in a meeting hall and talk or play games. We are out doing things which require adult coverage either for health/safety reasons (climbing, shooting, water sports, etc.) or for training purposes (advanced first aid, using tools requiring adults, etc.).

 

I think we need to get away from this mindset if a unit doesn't do BORs on demand they are some how less boy led than if they use a more scheduled approach.

[RememberSchiff 3672]

As for patience, our scouts practice patience full time while doing their scouting stuff. Patience is one of the most practiced skills as a youth leader and is discussed "A Lot" during my conferences and reviews with scouts.

 

To be honest, with all the character traits the scouts' struggle with while making decisions in a boy run program, patience seems like a flimsy excuse for adults to justify a procedure used in their program. Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit  in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? 

 

Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this.

 

Barry

 

Ok, why did the BSA institute the change of  "on demand" BOR's and "instant recognition"? It was NEVER that way when I was a scout.

 

We waited until the next  scheduled BOR (I hear the crying today "But that's 4 weeks. WAAAN, WAAAN", Well sometimes it was longer as my troop held no BORs in the summer). Life is that way. Try getting a driving test from the DMV on-demand,

 

We waited until the next COR to received our badge and card but in the meantime we went about our scoutwork. No hissy fits, no dropping everything to give praise only to attempt do it again in front of the whole troop and wonder heh why isn't the scout and his family here. Oh, we already recognized him, no wonder.

 

Patience. Politely wait your turn, while continuing your work. No Gimme. No entitlement. Express thanks for the time taken by adults, including the mean-looking State Trooper administering your driver test.

 

Good decisions have good reasons. Oh meetings are on Thurs because that is when the room was available. Some might say that's a tradition, I say it was when the room was available.

 

My $0.02

[Stosh 3452]

Patience used to be a virtue.  I don't know if it even exists today.

[Eagledad 2779]

I think we need to get away from this mindset if a unit doesn't do BORs on demand they are some how less boy led than if they use a more scheduled approach.

That' brilliant! Didn't someone else say something like that? OH YES, it was me:

 

"Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit  in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? 

 

Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this."

 

Barry

[Krampus 696]

That' brilliant! Didn't someone else say something like that? OH YES, it was me:

 

Right but then you make statements like the one below which seem to throw those folks who don't use the on demand method under the bus. No?

 

 

 

 

I have to agree. This is a strange conversation.

 

I was the SM of a large troop and we do our SM conferences and BOR at the request of scouts. They usually didn't get a conference that day, but they might. Some folks here like to talk the big talk of their boy run or patrol method program, but I wonder sometimes. What takes up so much of your SM's time during a meeting?

 

Edited February 26, 2016 by Krampus

[Eagledad 2779]

 

Right but then you make statements like the one below which seem to throw those folks who don't use the on demand method under the bus. No?

 

 

 

 

Yep, and that was based from the discussion trend of justifying scheduled conferences and BORs because the adults are too busy during meetings. I was the SM of a big boy run program and we certainly had the time. I wasn't saying your troop should be like ours.

 

Now maybe your troop is struggling for adult time, I stand corrected. But then I would ask, will you change the routine of your conferences and BOR schedules later when the adults have more time? I have never heard that to be a goal in any troop.

 

Same goes with my comments on patience. If teaching scouts the skill of patience is in fact the primary reason for long periods of time between BORs and conferences, then I applaud the attempt toward character growth. But it appeared to me in the discussion to be a disingenious  attempt to raise it unworthy to discuss. I'm only saying that I have more respect for "we have always done it this way and see no reason to change" rather than covering our pride with a less truthful reasoning.

 

That is why I said, and still say that we shouldn't feel pressured to make up noble reasons to cover ourselves in subjects that have little consequences to a scouts experience in the program. If you feel that kind of pressure, then something else needs to change.

 

Barry

Edited February 26, 2016 by Eagledad

[fred johnson 936]

You seem to think you know better for our unit.

 

No as I said ... Sometimes ya just make a choice of how you want it to work and then you make it work.  

 

If your troop wants to make it work that way, fine.  I am sure you can make it work the other way too.  IMHO, this is more a matter of troop personality than a structural obstacle.  

[fred johnson 936]

I have to agree. This is a strange conversation.

 

I was the SM of a large troop and we do our SM conferences and BOR at the request of scouts. They usually didn't get a conference that day, but they might. Some folks here like to talk the big talk of their boy run or patrol method program, but I wonder sometimes. What takes up so much of your SM's time during a meeting?

 

I had four task during the average Troop meeting:

1. Before the troop meeting I talked with the SPL about the PLC meeting to learn what they desired from the adults. We have a PLC meeting each week before the troop meeting.

 

2. Scoutmaster conferences and coffee with the adults. Time with the adults was important for me because that is where I talked a lot about the reasoning behind patrol method and why we weren't in the same rooms with the boys. And it also just fun talking about other stuff.

 

3. Scoutmaster minute at the end of the meeting (SPL only gave me 2 minutes).

 

4. Listen to the PLC during their post meeting discussion.

 

That was it basically. Oh of course other things popped up like talking to parents, guest, CC on an as need basis, but basically my time during meetings was scoutmaster conferences and coffee and stuff. What do your Scoutmasters do? 

 

As for patience, our scouts practice patience full time while doing their scouting stuff. Patience is one of the most practiced skills as a youth leader and is discussed "A Lot" during my conferences and reviews with scouts.

 

To be honest, with all the character traits the scouts' struggle with while making decisions in a boy run program, patience seems like a flimsy excuse for adults to justify a procedure used in their program. Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit  in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? 

 

Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this.

 

Barry

 

Well said.

[fred johnson 936]

That' brilliant! Didn't someone else say something like that? OH YES, it was me:

 

"Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit  in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? 

 

Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this."

 

Barry

 

I can accept that.  Troops have traditions that work for them.  IMHO, troops make what they decide they want to do either work or not work.  In my working with many troops, I've seen more commonality in situation than difference.  It's more deciding how to handle situations is where the difference and tradition come in.

[Stosh 3452]

It's always surprising to see people's reactions when they find out that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

[Eagledad 2779]

I can accept that.  Troops have traditions that work for them.  IMHO, troops make what they decide they want to do either work or not work.  In my working with many troops, I've seen more commonality in situation than difference.  It's more deciding how to handle situations is where the difference and tradition come in.

Sometimes we can be too smart for ourselves. I had visited a couple troops that elected SPLs annually instead of biannually. It seem to work well for them because it gave the SPL enough time to get used to the job and still have time to advance the program with their personal ideas. So I proposed the idea to the PLC and they scratched their heads to what the troop would gain. I am usually a pretty good sales man, but they saw the change as more work than gain and said move on. So as you wisely noted, the real differences was how they handled their program within the tradition we were using.

 

I still would have liked to have seen how it worked. LOL

 

Barry

[Krampus 696]

Yep, and that was based from the discussion trend of justifying scheduled conferences and BORs because the adults are too busy during meetings. I was the SM of a big boy run program and we certainly had the time. I wasn't saying your troop should be like ours.

I still get the feeling you're under the impression that the adults drove this somehow. The boys drive the program. The program as boy-designed requires adult coverage in various areas. The boy-designed program requires more adults for coverage than we can muster. Societal and family necessities take adults (and boys, frankly) from the program so we need to cover with what we have.

 

Now maybe your troop is struggling for adult time, I stand corrected. But then I would ask, will you change the routine of your conferences and BOR schedules later when the adults have more time? I have never heard that to be a goal in any troop.

Only if the BOYS make that decision. Again, remember, the boys made this decision. We don't struggle as much as you think. We just plan better. The BOYS plan better. And the boys are the ones running things. They too, prefer that things be planned. Not sure why that's so hard to grasp.

 

Same goes with my comments on patience. If teaching scouts the skill of patience is in fact the primary reason for long periods of time between BORs and conferences, then I applaud the attempt toward character growth. But it appeared to me in the discussion to be a disingenious  attempt to raise it unworthy to discuss. I'm only saying that I have more respect for "we have always done it this way and see no reason to change" rather than covering our pride with a less truthful reasoning.

ROFL...there's no pride being covered. I am not looking for affirmation from you or Fred as to how our boys run our program. They like structure. They require it because of the many demands on their time from all sources. If you live in an areas where on demand SMCs and BORs work for you, great. Would not work in my area. Units have tried it and few succeed. The small units can do it. Large ones cannot. Again, IN MY AREA. You may experience something different.

 

No as I said ... Sometimes ya just make a choice of how you want it to work and then you make it work.  

 

If your troop wants to make it work that way, fine.  I am sure you can make it work the other way too.  IMHO, this is more a matter of troop personality than a structural obstacle.

I love sanctimony. You seem to think that on demand SMCs and BORs somehow make your unit more in line with what BSA wants or something. I've already explained why our unit, and nearly every unit in my area, does things this way. I could be sanctimonious and say maybe our scouts are just better at planning and are more patient than yours, but that would not be constructive. But as long as our scouts want us to keep this schedule we will. If they ever want to change, we will adjust.

 

Oddly, no one has ever come to me and complained. In fact, when I have an 11 year old show me his planner and pencil me in for his SMC in two weeks I take pride in that. He's living the Scout Law. He's courteous of our time. He's obedient in following a schedule. I've done my job, even though you somehow don't think so.

[Stosh 3452]

While our BOR's tend to "follow the rules" and thus need a bit more attention to scheduling than SMC, I find it very strange that I do the SMC differently than others.  Which might be a good thing because SMC's are not defined as being done in a certain way as are BOR's.

 

I have my PL's keep me informed of the boys that are getting close to moving up in rank and as a result I might be the one initiating a SMC with the boy.  If formality is required, the scout can work that out with the BOR's. 

 

Once I get the heads up from a PL that Little Johnny is getting close, I will find an opening at my convenience to have him get his book and let me see how he's doing with his next rank.  Obviously the SMC and BOR are not checked off nor is Scout Spirit requirement.  I take a minute or two to address that Scout Spirit issue with the boy.  If there are unfinished requirements, I do my little, "what can I do to help you with that?" thingy, then sign off on his SMC and Scout Spirit.  Unless the boy is chatty, the process usually only takes 5-10 minutes and the boy doesn't view it as a major 'needs to be scheduled" requirement.  I always remind the boy that he will need to do that for the BOR, however.  I leave the next couple of steps, finish the requirements and schedule the BOR up to him.  I gave him a little reminder, but now the ball's in his court and he has to take the responsibility to follow through.

 

I guess I don't see this as something to get all worked up about.  I get my SM thing done, a couple of requirements signed off and the biggy scheduled thing is the BOR and I don't have to worry about that because I'm not involved.  It's a bit like the MB blue cards.  I sign off on them and forget about it, it's the boys responsibility.  I took heat on the forum for it, but I do the same thing for the Eagle projects.  The boys have enough hoops to jump through.  If it was an adult needing to jump through hoops, I wouldn't stand in his way, why would I do it to a boy?