TAHAWK 1420 Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 The boys should decide what patrol they are in. "they self-select and they are friends" Scouting blog 2015 “In a Troop in which the boys are shuffled together at frequent intervals and dealt out into new Patrols according to the whim of the Scoutmaster, there obviously can be little opportunity for the development of Patrol morale and Patrol traditions.†Bill Hillcourt “Scouts should be encouraged to invite their friends to join the troop and become a member of their patrol.†B.S.A. website, 2016 Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 The boys should decide what patrol they are in. "they self-select and they are friends" Scouting blog 2015 “In a Troop in which the boys are shuffled together at frequent intervals and dealt out into new Patrols according to the whim of the Scoutmaster, there obviously can be little opportunity for the development of Patrol morale and Patrol traditions.†Bill Hillcourt “Scouts should be encouraged to invite their friends to join the troop and become a member of their patrol.†B.S.A. website, 2016 This is why I think the idea of a NSP is vital to the smooth operation of the patrol method. For me I find there is a difference between a NEW SCOUT patrol and a NEW scout patrol. I prefer the section option. The patrol is no different than a regular patrol and will become a regular patrol once a year rolls around and the TG goes back to doing what he wants with his patrol. Because they are a NEW patrol a bit of attention is afforded them through orientation. However once that orientation is done, there is no reshuffling of any patrols unless the boys wish to make changes. I have suggested that if boys wish to become members of the older patrols, they spend a bit of time in the new orientation patrols until they get their feet on the ground and then they are free to go where they wish or stay in the patrol if that is what they want. With the new process I am doing with the Webelos II boys getting their AOL and then transitioning over to the troop has the boys already in two patrols with Denners (PL's) in place. My two scouts function as TG's. When the boys cross over into Boy Scouts at the end of May, I'm thinking they will pretty much just stay with the two patrols rather than get all that excited about doing an apple-cart upside-down reorganizational mix up because we don't have any older regular patrols anyway. I'm thinking that with the 6 months of working as a patrol of Webelos II and getting AOL, they will pretty much be regular patrols anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I'm not a fan of NSPs because they take longer to assimilate scouts into the troop program. NSPs have an advantages in some situations, but In most cases they slow down scout growth. The NSP was added to the program around 1990 in an attempt to lower the dropout rate of first years scouts. More scouts drop out of the BSA during their first year in the than any other year. However, the dropout numbers 15 years later did not show improvement. Which means the assumption of why new scouts quit was wrong. There is nothing wrong with the idea of friends joining the same patrol, but that should not be the primary or overriding motivation to give a scout the best possible opportunity for a successful career in a boy run program. I know our natural parental instinct are that groups of boys who have been together a long time would want to stay together, but my experience is only 1 in 10 groups want that option when presented with other choices. You would be surprised with the number of boys looking to start fresh because their group holds them in place within the hierarchy the group has already established. The first scouts who quit are scouts on the bottom of the hierarchy. And groups that stick together require a lot more outside patrol influence to achieve half the growth. I'm not suggesting troops use one method or the other. Our troop lays out all the options with no hint of bias. It took us awhile to develop a successful new scout program, but I knew we were going the right direction when I got fewer calls from the parents. Barry 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TAHAWK 1420 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 "There is nothing wrong with the idea of friends joining the same patrol ...." No, indeed. That is called "Boy Scouting" according to B.S.A., BP, and Bill Hillcourt.. Link to post Share on other sites
Hedgehog 334 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 my experience is only 1 in 10 groups want that option when presented with other choices. When we tried a NSP last year, the overwelming response from the new scouts was "when do I get to join a real patrol?" We listened and let them join existing patrols. The NSP was added to the program around 1990 in an attempt to lower the dropout rate of first years scouts. More scouts drop out of the BSA during their first year in the than any other year. However, the dropout numbers 15 years later did not show improvement. Which means the assumption of why new scouts quit was wrong. Most dropouts are boys who aren't sure they want to do scouting but do it because their parents think it is a good idea. I suspect that any Den leader can tell you who will stick with scouting. We find the Webelos are sort of burned out on the Cub Scout model and the NSP just makes it seem like more of the same. The biggest indicator of who stays with the troop is if the new Scout goes camping before the end of the school year. One campout and they stay. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 While I have seen both models used, I guess in my neck of the woods I haven't witnessed any slowing down of a scout's career because they were part of a new patrol system. Yes, they did "start" their leadership later in their career, but those that stumbled along in the opening years seemed to figure it out quicker and have more opportunity for leadership than having to wait a year or two to start as one would have to do if they were in a regular patrol with older boys. Whereas BSA promotes NSP, regular and Venture patrols, I find the model quite workable and the boys especially when forced into it like in a new troop start up, get up to speed with extensive leadership skills even before they start in a regular patrol. Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 When the NSP stops working for us, I'll let the naysayers here be the first to know. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Like the Venture patrols, the New Scout patrols take a bit of a different approach to be effective. If all patrols are forced to be generic regular patrols it is a lot easier for adult administration, but not what BSA recommends. Attrition takes it's toll on the newbies and the old hands in a troop. If they somehow survive the early years they can get a benefit in scouting. If they somehow survive the later years, they usually get Eagle. With the retention percentages the way they are, maybe "somehow surviving" isn't the best approach and a bit more focus on those special needs might benefit from a different focus than one-size-fits-all. I would suggest, however, if one isn't committed to doing it well, I would stick with the generic regular patrols and hope for the best. Link to post Share on other sites
blw2 433 Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 The boys should decide what patrol they are in. "they self-select and they are friends" Scouting blog 2015 “In a Troop in which the boys are shuffled together at frequent intervals and dealt out into new Patrols according to the whim of the Scoutmaster, there obviously can be little opportunity for the development of Patrol morale and Patrol traditions.†Bill Hillcourt “Scouts should be encouraged to invite their friends to join the troop and become a member of their patrol.†B.S.A. website, 2016 Do you have any idea when Green Bar Bill said or wrote that? I'm not a fan of NSPs because they take longer to assimilate scouts into the troop program. NSPs have an advantages in some situations, but In most cases they slow down scout growth. The NSP was added to the program around 1990 in an attempt to lower the dropout rate of first years scouts. More scouts drop out of the BSA during their first year in the than any other year. However, the dropout numbers 15 years later did not show improvement. Which means the assumption of why new scouts quit was wrong. There is nothing wrong with the idea of friends joining the same patrol, but that should not be the primary or overriding motivation to give a scout the best possible opportunity for a successful career in a boy run program. I know our natural parental instinct are that groups of boys who have been together a long time would want to stay together, but my experience is only 1 in 10 groups want that option when presented with other choices. You would be surprised with the number of boys looking to start fresh because their group holds them in place within the hierarchy the group has already established. The first scouts who quit are scouts on the bottom of the hierarchy. And groups that stick together require a lot more outside patrol influence to achieve half the growth. I'm not suggesting troops use one method or the other. Our troop lays out all the options with no hint of bias. It took us awhile to develop a successful new scout program, but I knew we were going the right direction when I got fewer calls from the parents. Barry oh, it must have been around 1990..... Yeah, I know the quote isn't exactly addressing the NSP concept..... i was just trying to have a little fun... But in a way it does indirectly address it. If a current scout invites a buddy to join the troop in his patrol, it stands to reason that unless that scout's patrol was too big anyway, that's where the new scout would go... BUT if you were to have a big slug of new scouts joining all at once, as we do these days around B&G or whenever we do our crossovers.... then it kindof stands to reason that they would form a NEW patrol of New Scouts.... or in other words, a patrol that just so happens to be made up of new scouts.... so marching with that logic, this whole business of the NSP concept being introduced around 1990, on purpose, in order to attempt to change something.... just doesn't add up! Well i did learn math the old way.... maybe this is common core stuff... Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Do you have any idea when Green Bar Bill said or wrote that? If I am not mistaken it is from the Handbook for Scoutmasters, Volume One. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Hedgehog 334 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 BUT if you were to have a big slug of new scouts joining all at once, as we do these days around B&G or whenever we do our crossovers.... then it kindof stands to reason that they would form a NEW patrol of New Scouts.... or in other words, a patrol that just so happens to be made up of new scouts.... Or they might want to join a bunch of different patrlols. When we get a group of 2 or 3 guys from a den, they want to be together. When we get 4 or more, they usually have a buddy they want to be with. I think the there is a big draw for they crossovers to be with the older "cool" scouts. I like the NSP concept. It would make our patrol leaders' lives much easier. They just are getting the hang of leading after six months and then three fifth graders join their patrol causing all of the 6th graders to regress ( I tell them that is is just another challenge and that in life just when you think you have things under control, the situation changes). However, as I said before, we got pushback from they new Scouts because they didn't want Webelos 3. Link to post Share on other sites
TAHAWK 1420 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 If I am not mistaken it is from the Handbook for Scoutmasters, Volume One. Yup. 1936. Bill states the objective and warns against the opposite of the objective. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
blw2 433 Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 Or they might want to join a bunch of different patrlols. When we get a group of 2 or 3 guys from a den, they want to be together. When we get 4 or more, they usually have a buddy they want to be with. I think the there is a big draw for they crossovers to be with the older "cool" scouts. I like the NSP concept. It would make our patrol leaders' lives much easier. They just are getting the hang of leading after six months and then three fifth graders join their patrol causing all of the 6th graders to regress ( I tell them that is is just another challenge and that in life just when you think you have things under control, the situation changes). However, as I said before, we got pushback from they new Scouts because they didn't want Webelos 3. not if the other patrols are already pretty big. I can see a typical troop of several existing patrols absorbing a 1 or 2 new scouts scattered into several patrols, but not a whole den... many of which might want to stick with their friends anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 The NSP can be a Webelos 3 den if the troop makes it that way. We don't. It's just another patrol made up of new scouts and run by their own leadership with the help of a Troop Guide. Some of the smarter boys recruit a PL from the boys looking to get POR credit on the SLE level requirements. That works well too. When I hear the troops complain that the NSP is really just a Web 3 program, it's because that's the way it was set up by the troop. Take ownership of the problem and fix it instead of complaining and tossing it out. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2779 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 If a current scout invites a buddy to join the troop in his patrol, it stands to reason that unless that scout's patrol was too big anyway, that's where the new scout would go... BUT if you were to have a big slug of new scouts joining all at once, as we do these days around B&G or whenever we do our crossovers.... then it kindof stands to reason that they would form a NEW patrol of New Scouts.... or in other words, a patrol that just so happens to be made up of new scouts.... so marching with that logic, this whole business of the NSP concept being introduced around 1990, on purpose, in order to attempt to change something.... just doesn't add up! Well i did learn math the old way.... maybe this is common core stuff... Until 1990, Webelos Dens crossing over in one big group wasn't common way for scouts to join a troop. Webelos crossed over either by reaching a certain age or when they earned the Webelos rank. The dens depleted one of two scouts at a time, so the numbers worked fine to mix the scouts into existing patrols. Group crossovers were a result of the NSP, not the other way around. Is that what you meant by not adding up? As for Hillcourts quotes, both he and Powell encouraged patrols of friends during a time when friends were commonly defined by local relationships, not age as we discuss it here. I had friends both older and younger than me when I was the scout age. I think parents struggle with that concept today because it is unusual for neighborhood friends to become patrols. That is not to say Powell and Hillcourt wouldn't still encourage groups of Webelos to join a troop together, I'm sure they would. But it is important to understand the context of their quotes and the dynamics of the patrol. Friends joined patrols of existing patrols of friends as they reached the proper age. My dad was a boy scout during WWII and his troop never had more than two new scouts join at a time. Since they hiked everywhere they went, even to campouts, all the scouts lived very close to each other and where neighborhood friends long before they reached the age of scouts. It was a different time. Also, I don't think the quote about frequent shuffling of patrols applies to this discussion. That is different situation. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
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