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Den Leader Issue

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<<I for one feel that if the parents are happy and the boys are happy with this leader, leave well enough alone.  >> 




I agree.



I ran our pack's Tiger program for eight consecutive years.  The first year I led the Tiger Cub Den is two separate packs.



​With the new program,  my old methods and programs which I recycled each year were obsolete,  so I've retired from doing den and pack program,  by and large.

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Find out what she's good at and beg her to take that spot because she'd be more valuable there than merely running a den. 

At this point, if this were my pack, my response would probably be to run out the clock. Let the year finish, your Webelos II's den will bridge and you will have less collateral damage to control. M

I'm interested in why District requires a tour plan if travel is within Council. Part of the reason for the revised tour plan several years back was to REDUCE the administrative burden on packs. The i

Funny how in thinking you are doing the right thing can backfire.  I figured I would leave things alone and work to find a new Wolf leader for next for next year.  Our ACM had other ideas and for some reason wanted her gone.  We talked and agreed that it might cause a ripple effect and we might have an entire group leave.  He agreed and we left it alone.  I just the other day get a copy of an email she has sent to the committee saying I am the problem and that I have constantly changed the rules and punish her and her husband.  I have asked for examples of any rules changes I have made or any punishments I have given anyone.  To date I have received no response.  I did receive a text from the husband/Webelos II Den leader saying the same thing so I asked for him to give me an example as making accusations like that can be very damaging to someone's reputation since his wife felt the need to send an email to the entire Pack Committee.  He replies that he can't think of any examples but just feels that way.  His wife feels that we punished him/her by taking his $125.00 Den supply fees away after he spent $253 of Pack money on a one night Webelos Campout when he only had $50 to spend even after he was told he only had $50 to spend.  Plus he charged each person $7 additional that went as well.  Come to find out the campout was only for one night as per stated on the Tour Permit, Pack Calendar, Camp Agenda and parents.  The Pack only had $200 budgeted for four Webelos campouts (2 for Webelos I and 2 for Webelos II).  By the way.  The wife was the Pack Treasurer at the time paying out all this without any backup or approval from the Committee Chair.  I have since resigned as Cubmaster as I will no longer play this back and forth game with two children that claim to be adults. 


The funniest part of all of it is that I found out today that she is the reason that 14 Tigers quit last year.  She apparently threw several of them out of the Camp Kitchen when Our then Wolf Den Leaders wife was making a few of them some sandwiches that missed lunch because this lady closed down the kitchen 45 minutes early and told the wife that they can just eat at the next meal. 


I am also finding out that this same leader got into a verbal confrontation at our Bridging Ceremony with the same lady about the meal being served at the ceremony.  The leader turns and says to this lady "not everyone can be skinny and pretty like you".  Does this in front of other Pack Parents.  This leader was apparently complaining that we did not have any wheat bread sandwiches made.  The lady said that it looks like someone took a lot of time to prepare the food line and it looks great. 


So the ACM tells me that he has dealt with no less that 5 parent complaints since June about this woman and that is why he wanted her gone so bad.  He didn't tell me about any of them as felt I already had enough on my plate.  Life is funny.

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Aren't power struggles a ton of fun?  One would think that by the time one got to adulthood some maturity might have settled in around the edges a bit?  Nope.  These are the same people who are going to be complaining about how the nursing home is run when they get there.


The sad part about it, once it gets out of hand, all the nice people don't want anything to do with it leave and by the time they dump the troublemaker, the cream has been skimmed off the top.  If recovery from such things wasn't bad enough now they have to try and do it without all the really caring people.

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Ya know? I just skip these threads after a point because at a certain point I'm so far past Cubs, and happy about it, I don't have much to offer. Then there comes along gory details of how someone is trying to turn a fun little program into a fiefdom.


What Stosh said.


Here's the deal. In this kind of situation, bad apples go for the top gun. Someone tells me I don't have $? I do less or do it differently. Someone tells a bad apple they don't have $s, the whole word is persecuting and it all started with the guy at the top, so he runs the program ino the ground. No matter what, it's them against the world. What's worse, the people they put out think the leader approved of all this, so they don't come and ask for help, or they do come and the leader tried to be diplomatic which sounds like he's not listening.


The CC and COR need to suspend these toxic individuals. They need to find replacements. They need to do whatever sucking up they can to bring you back on. (And they need to be brutally honest with you if they have any inkling that you contributed to the problem.) Then you all need to call those parents of the lost Tigers and apologize for how things went off the rails. Not to recruit them back, just apologize 'cause nobody deserves that treatment.

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qwazse - Already started the process.  Have contacted several families already.  I should have taken note when I spoke with them when they said they would not be staying with Cub Scouts that all of them had the same reason "Too busy with other stuff."  But I have looked back and 75% of those that left attended ALL the Pack events to include Pack Meetings and Camp Outs.  I think maybe I was trying to do too much and did not have a chance to look around me.  I always figured that if the Scouts were leaving the events sweaty, laughing and smiling, then my job was a success.  Not always true. 

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I didn't have time to read the entire thread so excuse me if I missed something. Coming out of a pack where our Bear Den leader did almost NOTHING I would say that if you have one who the parents like and who keeps the boys active you might do better to stick with her.


Our Bear den leader would come in with nothing planned and start thumbing through the book (several times my son's book because she forgot hers.) trying to figure out something she could do for the night. When I offered to help she wasn't interested and when I brought in supplies for making decorations for the blue and gold banquet based upon one of my son's suggestions (That he spent hours researching after he was asked to by the den leader) I got a lecture for making her fell bad because she wanted to do something else and I had advocated (argued according to her) for using at least one of my son's ideas. Not one of the other boys had spent the time coming up with one so I was not advocating for their idea over his. The ideas proposed by her and another parent required the boys to do all the work at the B&G set up (making a tent out of plastic and animals out of 2 balloons stuck together with faces drawn one them) and nothing at the next 2 meetings that were supposed to be set aside for that. When my son suggested that his idea gave them a better chance of winning a prize for decorating because it involved making circus animals out of recycled items he was told that he was too focused on winning. (He is but that shouldn't be a factor when they told him that they needed something good because their would be prizes for the best.) 

When we were asked to leave the pack about a month ago it was because I complained that the required den dinner had been canceled by the den dinner just hours before camping trip started. At that point in early March (To spite weekly meetings) we had not been on a single outing to fulfil the Bear requirements for advancement. They hadn't done any of the group activities like building things that were listed in the book. Well other than the Whittling Chip which was lead by another adult. They did have a plan for the carnival. Go to the fair and let the Bears show the Tigers or Wolves how to play games. I had made it clear that I did not approve of that idea. It was not a lesson that I wanted my son taught - take the easy way out. However at first I assumed that it was that they had no idea how to throw a carnival and that my experience doing so as a child would be welcome. I offered to oversee everything. The den leader told me "It's not up to me it's up to the scout master." Then she told me "SM says that it will cost too much." So I told her "Oh not the way we did it when we were kids. I can do with not cost to the Pack. I will even supply some small prizes." In a very cheerful way because I was still under the impression that they would prefer follow the guidelines and to do something that would be a lot more fun for the boys and a lot hassle for me than taking my son to the fair on a day that we didn't plan to go. But they had no interest in doing that. And they had the perfect time to do it because the Blue and Gold theme was Circuses & Carnivals. 


Oh and I discovered that we were expected to pay for the games they were required to play. Later I discovered that I was a nagging parent. So the boys sat, and sat, and sat at the meetings while the leader read out of the book and told them what to bring the next week. And then twice forgot what they were supposed to bring so she wasn't prepared for them to present it. Quite a few times she was late and I went ahead and after 10 to 15 minutes of doing nothing I got the boys giving their presentations or sharing things related to cub scouts since no one knew if she would be there. So yes I went to the Scout Master and asked for more. As a nagging parent I was told that there wasn't a place for my son in the pack. (It wasn't said so nicely.)

So the boys will likely get their Bear rank at some point but they really will not have learned the things that they were supposed to from the experience. They will have wasted many hours sitting doing nothing with a den leader who clearly didn't care if they had fun or learned anything. But maybe she filled out her paperwork. Somehow I doubt it though. My son hadn't gotten any of the things that he had earned other than his chip. She was always going to turn them in next month. The den lost several boys and at least one other mom is planning on leaving. But 3 of the 4 boys who I know of who are left - 1 belongs to the DL and 2 other belong to someone who I believe is going to be the new ScoutMaster next year. Hopefully for the sake of the boys who are left he will expect more. But I don't have much hope of that because if I understood correctly he is new to scouting and his wife really didn't seem to care if the den did anything other than let the boys play. 

I was sad for my son that he wanted more and instead of being rewarded for putting in the effort the adults around him made him feel like he just needed to follow their lead. I keep reading her about how the boys are supposed to learn to be leaders but in this pack I can't tell you how many times we heard "Some of the boys can't do that so we aren't going to try." For the song or skit they were supposed to do.  For making decorations. IMHO It wasn't that any of the boys were incapable of doing the requirements it was that the DL had given up on her son and she wasn't even trying anymore. She was running the den based upon what she thought her son would or would not do without even giving him a chance to join in with the fun even if it was in his own way. (Like having him hold a flashlight on the boys for a creepy look or rattle pans during a spooky story if he wasn't able to get up in front of friends and act.) I am sorry but that is not the sort of leader that any unit should accept. Better to just send the boys elsewhere. Better to have a leader who is at least trying to run a fun filled program. In a perfect world they could do both but a huge reason that I was reluctant to become a leader was that I was afraid of failing the boys. I was afraid of being judged on how well I kept up with paperwork. Funny thing was that I never worried about failing as a Cub Scout parent. But I did. 

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