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Renax127

Feel a little hurt and angry

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The CC and SM were the ones that told me after the cross over yesterday, the reason they gave was the other guy decided he wanted the job now after not wanting it before. It was made clear they didn't like the idea of me trying to make it a patrol method, boy led troop. There might have been something else involved I don't know, heck maybe some parent complained that I was too rough/demanding on their kid, which I will admit I might have done.

 

Well then I have to say I am with @@Stosh...I'd look elsewhere. Hopefully you have other options in your area with a more boy-led program. Good luck. Sorry the adult drama ruined your experience.

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Stick around for 4 to 6 weeks and see how it shakes out.  That lets the boys know that you were willing and able, but that the decision was made elsewhere.  

If nothing snaps, quietly go camping with your boy.  If you drop your BSA membership, you can even let him invite a friend to go camping with y'all.

 

My evil side thinks that perhaps many of the scouts didn't want a 'boy-led' troop.  It's work for them.  Failure to do that work is embarrassing, and has consequences.  Many of my scouts learned from their failures; they learned that they never wanted to be a leader again.

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Stick around for 4 to 6 weeks and see how it shakes out.  That lets the boys know that you were willing and able, but that the decision was made elsewhere.  

If nothing snaps, quietly go camping with your boy.  If you drop your BSA membership, you can even let him invite a friend to go camping with y'all.

 

My evil side thinks that perhaps many of the scouts didn't want a 'boy-led' troop.  It's work for them.  Failure to do that work is embarrassing, and has consequences.  Many of my scouts learned from their failures; they learned that they never wanted to be a leader again.

I think that's part of it, one of the things said was "well the boys have to have fun or they won't come back". Well of course its fun to get things without putting in any effort. I don't know that I want to stay around and see the little progress I've made with the new scouts in particular, destroyed.

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One always has to take into consideration that youth today are masters of getting adults to cater to their every whim and want.  Ever wonder why we have 40 year olds living in their parents' basement?  I have had boys that were truly experts in getting adults to run and fetch on a regular basis.. ..... in a way that's some pretty good leadership, if not excellent management, if one thinks about it for a while.  There are a ton of parents and scouters out there that are completely buffaloed by the kids today.  50 years ago, it was unheard of to think that if one were to sit long enough some adult is going to come around and jump through hoops to cheer you up or try and make your day nicer.

 

Mr. S.... I can't find the dutch oven in the trailer. 

 

Did you look everywhere?

 

Yep.

 

I saw it in there just before we left.

 

It's not there now.

 

And at this point the adult goes to the trailer and hauls out the DO to prove his point, totally oblivious to the con job he just fell prey to.  :)

 

My routine?

 

Mr. S.... I can't find the dutch oven in the trailer.

 

Bummer!

 

Running a boy led program is a lot more difficult than running an adult led program.

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Running a boy led program is a lot more difficult than running an adult led program.

Part of the discussion yesterday centered around my assertion that "a patrol is a patrol whether that's 2 scouts or 10" and that I expected the 2 scouts to camp as a patrol and not be put with some other patrol. They just could not accept that 2 scouts could do it on their own and pointed out all the other troops that don't do that either. They were thoroughly scandalized when I said "I don't really care what anyone else is doing, we should do it the right way" and insisted that yes I did need to care. They insist on dining fly's, Coleman stoves, etc on the camping trips, unless it's a backpacking trip which they've done 1 in the last 2 years mostly because I didn't let the adult "fix" the one we had scheduled.

 

I am, and pretty much always was I guess, going to bow out of leadership. I don't see the point of it for me or for the continued success of the troop or the boys in it.

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If the primary reason for not selecting you was your desire to re-establish a boy-led troop; and that is not what they would like to see; the real question is (1) why would you want to remain at all - if their philosophy is so different; and (2) does your son want to remain in the troop if it is not boy-led?

 

It may be that your son is happy with this ... let him stay in the troop, you can leave ... I am confident that district level people would be pleased to have you participate at their level.

 

If this is not what your son wants for his experience, I hope you are in an area where there are other nearby troops ... and If not ...

Let your son remain for now and since you appear to have some skills at recruiting, establish a new troop and recruit into that, even if it has to wait until next year's bridging to fill out the membership.

 

Best of Luck, and thanks for the service that you have and will continue to give.

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@@Renax127, you had ASM's who didn't want to assist the SM, that's all there is to it. It was far easier to micromanage your program than to go off and start their own. So let them take over.

 

I get adults not "getting it" and having to bite your lip after using all due courtesy to say it could better be done left up to the boys. That's one reason why I became a crew advisor -- so I'd have a little space to try and lead the way my SM lead me (and later, to try some of the techniques suggested on this forum). Being "the guy" gives a little authority, but doesn't change the culture until adults see youth rise to the occasion or one adult sticks up for you. If you have that one adult who thinks you're insane but will stand by you regardless, it's actually okay even if the boys see the two of you disagree sharply.

 

But, if you don't feel like you can be supportive now that the tables are turned, then walking way until you cross paths with that "sidekick" is the smart thing.

 

Just remember this feeling when you wanna have words with your son's coach or youth leader. ;)

Edited by qwazse

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They've made it clear by their actions that they don't want you as Scoutmaster.  They've given you the explanation as to why.  The way they did it says a lot more about their character than it says about yours.  One of those character traits is cowardice - and I would suggest they're still being cowards as it's likely they want you to quit rather than for them to tell you they would prefer it if you weren't part of the leadership team. 

 

So what to do?  Quite anyway - these people are toxic - and I wouldn't force your son to stay until April - if this is the way these leaders treat adults, imagine how they'll treat the youth.  Find a new unit, and recruit like heck from the folks that just crossed over, before those parents get infected with the baby sitters attitude.

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But, if you don't feel like you can be supportive now that the tables are turned, then walking way until you cross paths with that "sidekick" is the smart thing.

 

Just remember this feeling when you wanna have words with your son's coach or youth leader. ;)

Well I'd like to be the kind of person that could let it go and still be supportive and I try but I think it's important for me to accept that I probably can't do that and not alienate someone from scouting by not being able too.

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Well I'd like to be the kind of person that could let it go and still be supportive and I try but I think it's important for me to accept that I probably can't do that and not alienate someone from scouting by not being able too.

 

As was pointed out be several already, they are not "honest" so what other parts of the Law are they going to break? Not sure I would have my kid in that group. But I will say that kids get a great deal from their parents. It might be best for him to see you stand up for your principles and leave to find a better troop. After all, you are fighting for his well-being and development. He needs to know that is why you volunteered to be SM, and that is why you are leaving. He will understand. Heck, he might know it already. ;)

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As was pointed out be several already, they are not "honest" so what other parts of the Law are they going to break? Not sure I would have my kid in that group. But I will say that kids get a great deal from their parents. It might be best for him to see you stand up for your principles and leave to find a better troop. After all, you are fighting for his well-being and development. He needs to know that is why you volunteered to be SM, and that is why you are leaving. He will understand. Heck, he might know it already. ;)

My inability to just make a decision on this is mostly because I'm trying to figure out what lesson he'll learn. Do I stay to try and help to show quitting when it's hard is bad or do I leave to show sticking to what I believe is important. Far as what he knows, he's probably got some idea since I was talking to him about "when I start as Scoutmaster" what I'd expect of him on the way to the crossover yesterday and then when we got home, after a long discussion with the CC and SM, I wasn't going to be SM anymore.

 

Crap raising kids is hard, why wasn't I warned.

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My inability to just make a decision on this is mostly because I'm trying to figure out what lesson he'll learn. Do I stay to try and help to show quitting when it's hard is bad or do I leave to show sticking to what I believe is important. Far as what he knows, he's probably got some idea since I was talking to him about "when I start as Scoutmaster" what I'd expect of him on the way to the crossover yesterday and then when we got home, after a long discussion with the CC and SM, I wasn't going to be SM anymore.

 

Crap raising kids is hard, why wasn't I warned.

 

 

LOL, it is not kids that made this hard. ;)

 

From you say here's what I think everyone gets out of leaving:

  • He learns how to analyze a no-win situation.
  • He learns that trust, honesty and one's word still mean something in this world.
  • He learns that there are times when leaving is better than fighting.
  • He learns to analyze his values (boy-led, PM) and discern whether he wants to waste his time (life) trying to fix something OR being in an environment he may not agree with.
  • He learns is old man has ideals which he won't compromise.
  • He learns the value of his dad making sure he gets to enjoy his youth, learn, grow and develop in to a leader; instead of playing Cub Scout until he's 18.

No one like to leave something they had thought was going to work out, but I keep thinking about their dishonesty and wondering what else they will do? What other shortcuts will they take? Will their RSOs be trained or just very good duck hunters? Will the leaders have WRFA training or just say they do and print up a certificate online? Will you and your kid even get a fair shake after this?

 

No one can walk a mile in your shoes. We've all been in similar situations but we can only give you what we would do and hope it is of comfort and aid.

Edited by Krampus

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Here's some empathy for you.

 

I'm fortunate in that when I said no mixing of patrols the adults had to back off because I am the SM. Turns out the scouts like smaller patrols. Two is a bit small but three works fine and four is great, at least that's what my scouts tell me. The adults used to say "well, if only half the scouts show up then we should double the size of the patrols so there's always a full patrol on campouts." Nowhere in that comment does anyone show that they understand the dynamics in a patrol that is on its own. i.e., they aren't interested in developing youth leadership.

 

As for what to do, I can't pretend I know what you're going through. I'm guessing you're really frustrated after having worked up the energy and excitement to take over and turn the troop around only to have it explode. You could walk and nobody would blame you. Yet you obviously care about scouts. I mean, wouldn't the new SM like your help teaching leadership skills? While some scouts do enjoy being catered too, there are some older scouts that want some purpose. If a few scouts say they'd like to lead and, via training, you can give them a taste, then maybe they can talk to the SM. Just a thought. A bit subversive, but really about keeping what's important in focus.

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Hey, that's tough.  very similar thing happened to me leading into this year with the pack.  It really was a kick in the gut.  

 

Just to show the similarities....Some folks met with the CC without me.  These were the folks that were active leaders and the CM before, but have been completely inactive and not supportive during their "vacation" for a couple years.  and Honestly, I think a lot of their motivation was driven by their inability to let go, they wanted the "glory".  The funny thing was that if they would have invited me to the meeting and said they wanted to take it back over, I would have eagerly said, how can I help the transition!  

 

I made it clear to the CC that I thought it was bad form to take the meeting without me.  That I felt it was a kick in the gut.  I made it clear that they didn't step up to help to help in the transfer on their way out or offer or suggest things while I was doing the job, and that these would have been a much better and above board things to do.....  But I also made it very clear that I was not about to add to the adult drama.  I wasn't going to fight for it or get in their way.  That I intended to continue to support the pack, and that was not quitting.

 

I made it clear to the pack parents too, that I was not quitting. I didn't make any statements or points to the boys at all though, just taht i was not going to be their CM next year... To me the "not quitting" was the message I was most concerned about.

 

Anyway, I took some time to back away form Scouting completely.  It was easy since we break for the summer.  I even stopped reading about scouting, stopped visiting this forum for a while just to distance myself and gain perspective.

 

The CC and SM were the ones that told me after the cross over yesterday, the reason they gave was the other guy decided he wanted the job now after not wanting it before. It was made clear they didn't like the idea of me trying to make it a patrol method, boy led troop. There might have been something else involved I don't know, heck maybe some parent complained that I was too rough/demanding on their kid, which I will admit I might have done.

It's ultimately up to the CC, their decision.  I would want to make it clear that you are disappointed in the decision, and disappointed that they did it behind your back, but personally i would not make any sort of stink out of it at all.  I would offer support just like they should have offered you.  Support the new SM with the program he is trying to run..... as much as you can stomach anyway.  Just don't do anything negative or undermine it.

 

The fact is that you didn't have the cc's support, so it was probably doomed to failure anyway.  It seems that a scouter really can't affect change without gaining the support and trust of the CC

 

Stick around for 4 to 6 weeks and see how it shakes out.  That lets the boys know that you were willing and able, but that the decision was made elsewhere.  

If nothing snaps, quietly go camping with your boy.  If you drop your BSA membership, you can even let him invite a friend to go camping with y'all.

 

My evil side thinks that perhaps many of the scouts didn't want a 'boy-led' troop.  It's work for them.  Failure to do that work is embarrassing, and has consequences.  Many of my scouts learned from their failures; they learned that they never wanted to be a leader again.

@@Renax127, i didn't catch it.... what is your current position?  I'm assuming ASM, is that right?

 

IMHO, I think JoeBob is right.  Stick around and give as much cooperative support as you can muster.... not so much for the sake of giving the support, as it is to send a better message to your son and the other scouts.

this podcast sort of addresses this point.  It was in direct response to an email conversation I had with Mr. Green.  Maybe it could help you just a little

http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-294-cooperative-volunteering/

 

Who knows, maybe you can affect a better change in the troop from that way in some other position.  Some folks just aren't cut with the right personality or skills to do the SM job. Maybe they see that in you in some way, right or wrong.  I know I wasn't cut out for CM, but I did my best and put a lot into the job.  That's all I could do in the end.... I stepped up and helped when nobody else would and ended up doing a pretty good job, but I can honestly say it wasn't the best fit for me.

 

My inability to just make a decision on this is mostly because I'm trying to figure out what lesson he'll learn. Do I stay to try and help to show quitting when it's hard is bad or do I leave to show sticking to what I believe is important. Far as what he knows, he's probably got some idea since I was talking to him about "when I start as Scoutmaster" what I'd expect of him on the way to the crossover yesterday and then when we got home, after a long discussion with the CC and SM, I wasn't going to be SM anymore.

 

Crap raising kids is hard, why wasn't I warned.

 

In the end I'm coming to realize that BP was right, when he wrote more or less, that any boy can get good out of scouting, as long as the scouter does no harm.  SO, even in a less than perfect program your son can get something out of it good.

BUT, I'll bet odds are that he would be best served in a different unit.  It sounds like he's frustrated with it anyway.

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I feel your pain, been in the same situation myself.  Most parents don't want boy led, they want the easy way out (Weblos 3 den)

Those people are not worth the time of day, leave them in the rearview mirror.

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