Krampus 696 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Okay, you have a good program. Boy like it. We don't have a good program and the boys don't like it. Where is the disconnecting occurring? Why can't we have a good program, too? Where's the program validation not happening? At the risk of quoting myself I think it goes back to the discussion we are having in the outdoor adventure thread. BSA training needs to be more standardized and available. What really bugs me about some BSA training is that their manuals are not very substantive. For example, when discussing leadership the leadership section may say something like "Discuss key leadership principles here" and not actually give you leadership principles to discuss; so the instructor lacking leadership background will have no clue (for lack of stated examples) on what to discuss. I don't think you will ever get the courses exactly the same, @@Stosh, but if we could get close it would be nice. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 At the risk of quoting myself I think it goes back to the discussion we are having in the outdoor adventure thread. BSA training needs to be more standardized and available. What really bugs me about some BSA training is that their manuals are not very substantive. For example, when discussing leadership the leadership section may say something like "Discuss key leadership principles here" and not actually give you leadership principles to discuss; so the instructor lacking leadership background will have no clue (for lack of stated examples) on what to discuss. I don't think you will ever get the courses exactly the same, @@Stosh, but if we could get close it would be nice. @@Krampus I guess it's my fault in assuming the NATIONAL Youth Leadership Training was standardized. I understand there will be a bit of variance with the different personalities teaching, but the whole concept of "we really like it" vs. "Avoid it like the plague" must take into account more than just personality differences. I guess I'll just have to ship my boys down to Texas. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
blw2 433 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 again, we just don't have One Program Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Um, I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. NYLT is ONE standardize program. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 In theory, one program, yes, in practice? That's up for debate. Why would some council's boys think it's great and another council's boys avoid it as worthless? I was just trying to figure out how one standardized program could vary so much around the country. I'm thinking from the WB discussion that happens there as well. Then one would start to become suspicious about all the other "standardized" training out there that BSA has provided and why it varies so much in practice. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Just like two different math teachers teaching out of the same book, there will be some differences in presentation. When I was the Council JLT Chairman, we had our own council JLT program (JLTC) that was boy run based. It was very successful as far as satisfaction from the troops, but extremely difficult to present consistently because different course directors had differing opinions to how much independence participants should be given during the course. Even though I was the creator of the course, I dropped it for the new (new then) NYLT because it was much easier to for the average person to present consistently from year to year. My successors tell me NYLT is pretty easy to present when following the book. But I would be surprised if there wasn't any variance between councils just because nobody is a like. Barry Edited October 16, 2015 by Eagledad Link to post Share on other sites
BDPT00 41 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 They're all playing from the same sheet of music, but attitudes vary greatly. Unless he staffs (NYLT and Wood Badge) are participant focused, and have a servant leadership mentality, the course will fall short of expectations. If the staffs are hung up on their own importance, they will provide a lesser quality program. We read comments here all the time regarding aloof Wood badge staffers. That's because they are staff focused instead of participant focused. Takes a long time to change that culture. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I guess I'll just have to ship my boys down to Texas. Don't laugh, but we typically get troops from OK and AR to take our NYLT during winter break and spring break. They don't like what their council does so they register for ours. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Don't laugh, but we typically get troops from OK and AR to take our NYLT during winter break and spring break. They don't like what their council does so they register for ours. Not laughing at all, I find it rather a not laughing matter that there can be such differences in a standardized program and BSA has no checks and balances to insure a quality program for the boys. They're all playing from the same sheet of music, but attitudes vary greatly. Unless he staffs (NYLT and Wood Badge) are participant focused, and have a servant leadership mentality, the course will fall short of expectations. If the staffs are hung up on their own importance, they will provide a lesser quality program. We read comments here all the time regarding aloof Wood badge staffers. That's because they are staff focused instead of participant focused. Takes a long time to change that culture. Add to that the myriad of personal interpretation and one can have two entirely different programs running side by side using the same syllabus. We have the staff focused approach very well entrenched in our council, you maybe correct in this as the culprit for our boys preferring to avoid NYLT altogether. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Not laughing at all, I find it rather a not laughing matter that there can be such differences in a standardized program and BSA has no checks and balances to insure a quality program for the boys. Yes, because since we here on this forum all agree on the definition of "boy run", everyone else should at least agree on how to run a simple week long course. When the new Scoutmaster Specific course was presented by the Council 2000 for all the district training chairman to observe, it was read strait from the course material. I was told that the 8 hours was so boring, two district chairman had to be talked out of committing suicide. Lucky for me, I wasn't there, but I was responsible for presenting the new course in our district. As a result of the comments from those who did endure the hardship, I and other district trainers made some changes to the recommended presentation. Were we wrong? The BSA writes these courses for volunteers to present. Some volunteers are better at directing and presenting courses than others. Just like there are no two boy run troops that are a like, some councils do a better job presenting courses than others. And in many cases Council and district try to encourage consistently. But you only have to imagine the egos on this forum to understand the challenge of encouraging course directors to follow someones interpretation of the guidelines. But, consider this, because it is volunteer run organization, it will likely be different with the Chairman or course director. On a side note, when I was responsible for courses, I specifically recruited volunteers who were experienced presenters in their profession. I found that not only was the course more interesting for the participants, it was also presented more consistently. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Our Councils NYLT is very good. Patrol method, No dining hall crap. Scouts cook all their meals by patrols. compete as patrols. I was actually disappointed that Wood Badge didn't have more Patrol cooking. My biggest complaint with BSA training: Courses vary WILDLY based on who's conducting them. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Yes, because since we here on this forum all agree on the definition of "boy run", everyone else should at least agree on how to run a simple week long course. @@Eagledad Well, kinda.... I never use the term boy "run".... If we are all pushing for youth involvement (I'll compromise here) why is the YOUTH training program run/led by adults? As poorly run as it is in some councils, how much worse could it be if the program was run by experienced youth? Everyone's pushing the idea of older boys teaching younger boys and the epitome program of BSA for such leadership emphasized training is run by the adults? Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Yes, because since we here on this forum all agree on the definition of "boy run", everyone else should at least agree on how to run a simple week long course. @@Eagledad Well, kinda.... I never use the term boy "run".... If we are all pushing for youth involvement (I'll compromise here) why is the YOUTH training program run/led by adults? As poorly run as it is in some councils, how much worse could it be if the program was run by experienced youth? Everyone's pushing the idea of older boys teaching younger boys and the epitome program of BSA for such leadership emphasized training is run by the adults? The course teachers in NYLT are youth, has that changed? Even our JLTC course directors were youth when I was the Council JLT Chair. Well 19 to 21 year old scouts who had Council and National level JLT training. In fact, I think that just about all JLT courses have youth teachers. Maybe that is the flaw in your council. Barry 1 Link to post Share on other sites
blw2 433 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 ...... The BSA writes these courses for volunteers to present. Some volunteers are better at directing and presenting courses than others. Just like there are no two boy run troops that are a like, some councils do a better job presenting courses than others. And in many cases Council and district try to encourage consistently. But you only have to imagine the egos on this forum to understand the challenge of encouraging course directors to follow someones interpretation of the guidelines. But, consider this, because it is volunteer run organization, it will likely be different with the Chairman or course director. ...... right about some are better at presenting than others & some are more knowledgeable or experienced in the subject matter too...... and they may write them with that intent but in the end I think that the meetings and committees involved with the writing end up with over complicated &/or incomplete &/or confusing language. Not just with the training course.... the whole BSA program If you step back and take a look at almost any aspect of it, there is just far too much variation out there from one program to the next.... from one training course to the next.... and I can only guess from one district or council to the next.... Things are too much open to interpretation folks ignoring it and doing it "the way it has always been done" some folks with egos putting their stamp on it etc... It shouldn't be this hard. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 right about some are better at presenting than others & some are more knowledgeable or experienced in the subject matter too...... and they may write them with that intent but in the end I think that the meetings and committees involved with the writing end up with over complicated &/or incomplete &/or confusing language. Not just with the training course.... the whole BSA program If you step back and take a look at almost any aspect of it, there is just far too much variation out there from one program to the next.... from one training course to the next.... and I can only guess from one district or council to the next.... Things are too much open to interpretation folks ignoring it and doing it "the way it has always been done" some folks with egos putting their stamp on it etc... It shouldn't be this hard. I don't disagree with anything that you said. But for a moment imagine stosh and I presenting the same course side-by-side, is there any way National could write the syllabus so that the courses are presented identically? Don't presume I am defending National's courses. Because of my position at the time, I was asked to give some comments for the new soon to be NYLT course when it was being developed. They used ZERO of my suggestions and the course is opposite of what I think a Council Level JLT course should be. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
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