Adventures in Boy Led

[Renax127 70]

Well letting the boys reorganize the patrols last night went well.

 

It took some time for them to understand what "choose your patrol" meant. They tried the school yard "pick captains then captains pick members" first because they have always had the Patrol leader chosen for them and the upcoming guys thought they would still be Patrol leaders. They asked a couple times about "what if all the 2nd class guys end up in the same patrol" I mean there was a LOT of concern about that. I simply pointed out that the week before all the 2nd class boys had won the lashing race, so they'd probably be fine. That said I was wrong about how the patrols ended up, I thought it would end up split along ages but it ended up a little more mixed than that. We'll see how that works.

 

I have also discovered that they ask a ton of "can we do this", "Is it time for" type questions. The older boys are having a tough time when my answer is "I have no idea you make a decision" the younger ones are all over it though. I am also finding myself giving a lot more direction than I want when it comes to activities and how the meetings should be running. They just don't seem to get the patrol focus part and the default game time is volleyball with basketball as a back-up.

 

I realize it's a long term project to get the boys to understand what I'm doing, the younger boys get it and a couple of the older ones do too but it's like turning a big ship.

 

Oh the ASM that has been a pain about changing stuff wasn't there. I don't want to make it seem like it stayed away on purpose though cause that wasn't it.

 

 

[Sentinel947 1205]

Baby steps. How do you eat an Elephant? One bite at a time. With an already established Troop, you can't do this transition in one fell swoop. If you're interested, PM me. My Scoutmaster and I (ASM) have been encouraging this transition in our Troop, and we're about a year and half ahead of you in the process. I'd be happy to share what I've learned, as I'm sure others will have some insight into it as well. I think one of the users with Eagle in there name is about to start this in his own unit. You two should compare notes often. I know @@MattR is also somewhere in the same stage of the process as I am. 

Good luck. We're here to help, and remember, it's about and for the boys. 

Sentinel947 

[Stosh 3452]

Good for you!  Well done.

 

Well letting the boys reorganize the patrols last night went well.

 

It took some time for them to understand what "choose your patrol" meant.

 

Of course they knew what you meant, it is just that ... well, we've never done it that way before.  (They spelled it right out for you.  The adults are the leaders and we just do what we're told.)  #1 issue here" "Is this for real?"  The trust factor isn't there yet.  That will take time.

 

They tried the school yard "pick captains then captains pick members" first because they have always had the Patrol leader chosen for them and the upcoming guys thought they would still be Patrol leaders.

 

Again, uncharted waters here.  They resort to what adults have always done to them when making choices.  I hope you sat back and watched the dynamics of what was going on here, it was as much a learning experience for you as it was for them.  Did any of the boys "buck the system?"  Those would be your natural leaders.  The election process of 6 months is so strong it was difficult to break the pattern.  Did any of the boys insist that they needed to be with their buddies?  Those are your potential leaders, those willing to break the mold.  Did anyone stand up and say, "if we're picking patrols, we ought to be picking our PL's too."  Watch for those ques, they will identify natural leaders that the boys will eventually pick for leadership positions.

 

They asked a couple times about "what if all the 2nd class guys end up in the same patrol" I mean there was a LOT of concern about that.

 

The remnants of adult-led are still there, they are coming to you, the leader seeking a decision, clarification, guidance, etc. 

 

I simply pointed out that the week before all the 2nd class boys had won the lashing race, so they'd probably be fine.

 

Wrong answer!    You should have just said, "I'm not part of this process."  

 

That said I was wrong about how the patrols ended up, I thought it would end up split along ages but it ended up a little more mixed than that. We'll see how that works.

 

Are these patrols locked in stone or can the boys realign as needed?  How much are the adults going to stay involved with the functioning of the patrols?  "how the patrols ended up" is still open for debate.

 

I have also discovered that they ask a ton of "can we do this", "Is it time for" type questions.

 

To whom were the questions addressed, to the PL - that's great, to you - further evidence of the boys relying on the adults to make the decisions and lead.

 

The older boys are having a tough time when my answer is "I have no idea you make a decision"

 

They have been around longer, they know the drill and have had adult-led dynamics to deal with the longest.  They will need the most time to make the adjustment because they will need the most time to develop trust that the adults aren't going to pull the rug out from under them eventually.

 

the younger ones are all over it though.

 

They are still new and haven't had the run-ins with the adults on leadership issues the way the older boys have.

 

I am also finding myself giving a lot more direction than I want when it comes to activities and how the meetings should be running. They just don't seem to get the patrol focus part and the default game time is volleyball with basketball as a back-up.

 

Silence is Golden and you need to develop your "OMG, your're asking me what?" face. The longer the boys look to you to give direction the longer it will take to develop a comfortable patrol-method of operations where no outsiders, either adult leaders or troop officers will interfere with the operations of the patrols.  When the SM and troop officers are working to insure the success of the PL's and their patrols, the stronger the patrol-method will be and this will, of course, mean extra work for the adults and troop officers that the PATROL LEADERS are successful with their patrols.  The successful PL's are the ones the boys turn to for guidance and direction, not the SM or other adults.  The SPL and troop officers are who the PL's turn to for direction and guidance, not the SM or other adults.  Everyone is all in a tizzy about getting the older boys to work with the younger boys?  Well if the adults stay out of it and let the patrol-method to operate, the older boys will naturally have the opportunity to work with the younger boys.  Think for a moment, NSP PL is going to need some help getting up and running.  SPL, TG, Instructors are all in line waiting to help.  That's 3-4 older boys working with just one patrol.   If an adult is assigned to get the NSP up and running, that automatically takes 3-4 jobs away from the boys and then the adults jump on them for not dong their work to earn their POR.  It's no wonder the phrase, "Never trust anyone over the age of 30" still applies today. 

 

I realize it's a long term project to get the boys to understand what I'm doing, the younger boys get it and a couple of the older ones do too but it's like turning a big ship.

 

You are correct , they are still trying to figure out what you are up to.  Seriously they don't trust this new stuff.  You need to quickly develop a Creative Incompetence position where the boys, if they want an answer need to be working it out with their PLs not you.    You never mentioned whether or not the old PL's kept their positions or whether new ones were selected by the new patrols.  The boys need to realize they have TOTAL AUTONOMY with their patrol and if their PL isn't doing the job or they are not someone to whom they can turn for decisions, they had better come up with a PL that they're happy with or it's going to be a bumpy road.

 

Oh the ASM that has been a pain about changing stuff wasn't there. I don't want to make it seem like it stayed away on purpose though cause that wasn't it.

 

You have changed, the boys will make the change, but I'm almost certain, even without knowing him, he'll try to run things the old way at every step.  You will need to protect the boys from him or replace him, whichever is easier.  You can move the boys two steps forward with great effort, but all he need do is lift his little finger to set it back to square one.

 

You didn't mention how many patrols there were.  If you have 3-4 patrols the PL's might be encouraged to pick an SPL to help them be successful.  I know the BSA literature says the troop elects the SPL, but if you want a functional SPL that actually functions as helping the PL's be successful, the PL's need to be doing the picking.  If you want a patrol-method troop, you need an SPL that spends his time helping the PLs, not trying to run the troop because he won a popularity contest.

 

I love the title of the thread!  It is an adventure that a lot of scouts and scouters miss out on.  It's called leadership development!

Edited September 29, 2015 by Stosh

[Renax127 70]

Good for you!  Well done.

 

 

You didn't mention how many patrols there were.  If you have 3-4 patrols the PL's might be encouraged to pick an SPL to help them be successful.  I know the BSA literature says the troop elects the SPL, but if you want a functional SPL that actually functions as helping the PL's be successful, the PL's need to be doing the picking.  If you want a patrol-method troop, you need an SPL that spends his time helping the PLs, not trying to run the troop because he won a popularity contest.

 

I love the title of the thread!  It is an adventure that a lot of scouts and scouters miss out on.  It's called leadership development!

 

Hey, I'm still working on being a good useless adult, I think it would be easier for me too if it wasn't an established troop. 

 

We ended up with 3 patrol (8, 6, 7) with a few boys that weren't there. All 3 with new PL and APL's. My son's patrol was the big surprise elected 5-6 of the younger boys with a couple of older ones. They elected a kid that's never been PL cause the younger boys like him and he's always helping them out and really acts as a big brother. That PL has a learning disability but he works his butt off and is a Scout I depend on to get stuff done already. I have high hopes for that patrol. Oh yeah, they also all picked new Patrol names, which seemed to be a small issue with the old ASM's as well.

 

It's a pretty old troop with lots of boys 17 (or close to it) heck 3 of them age out in the next 6 months. Hopefully we can get enough boys in for a  full patrol during the requirement drive.

 

next challenge for the Patrols is patrol activities.

[Stosh 3452]

Hey, I'm still working on being a good useless adult, I think it would be easier for me too if it wasn't an established troop. 

 

We ended up with 3 patrol (8, 6, 7) with a few boys that weren't there. All 3 with new PL and APL's. My son's patrol was the big surprise elected 5-6 of the younger boys with a couple of older ones. They elected a kid that's never been PL cause the younger boys like him and he's always helping them out and really acts as a big brother. That PL has a learning disability but he works his butt off and is a Scout I depend on to get stuff done already. I have high hopes for that patrol. Oh yeah, they also all picked new Patrol names, which seemed to be a small issue with the old ASM's as well.

 

It's a pretty old troop with lots of boys 17 (or close to it) heck 3 of them age out in the next 6 months. Hopefully we can get enough boys in for a  full patrol during the requirement drive.

 

next challenge for the Patrols is patrol activities.

 

I wasn't being judgmental, just posting some observations.  It really sounds like you have a good handle on it and from this further info, it sounds like it's going to be a great opportunity for the boys.  The young boy who is popular and is always helping others is an EXCELLENT choice for PL.  Those boys did great.  

 

Besides becoming useless the next step for you is observing how well your decision plays out.  Trust your boys, they will surprise you and it looks like that just might be the case, hang in there, the journey is only just starting.

[Sentinel947 1205]

I would opine that we are not useless. We just don't directly lead. Our Scouts do. We coach, and guide them. We listen to them. I think we make a much more positive impact on their lives that way. I just happen to spend my time observing, from my chair, with a good book or homework(curse you college!). I check in with the SPLs and PLs as requested or if things go off the rails.

[Eagledad 2777]

Very good for you and the boys. By nature older scouts lead and younger scouts follow, so yes older scouts resist change and younger scouts will follow a vision. I'm glad you are evaluating the performance as you go along. Adults need to keep up so as not to get in the way. To help the ASMs and older scouts, keep preaching your vision of what you think the future boy run troop will look like and the benefits that come with that troop. You need everyone on board and selling them on the vision is the key. 

 

As for patrol activiities, try some patrol competitions to get the scouts used to working as a team and counting on each other. Lots of great ideas for competitions, but just something as simple as a knot tying race gets things going.

 

And remember, time is your friend when forcing scouts to work as a team. I love agendas because they show the PLs when and where the patrol needs to be. Time builds discipline and continuity quicker than anything else I know of.

 

Barry 

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Keep it up.  I had a similar discussion between BORs with one of the patrols last nite.  IMHO, our society has conditioned them to follow the adults' lead, and they have a hard time comprehending that they can do what they want, within BSA guidelines, as a patrol.

[Eagledad 2777]

Keep it up.  I had a similar discussion between BORs with one of the patrols last nite.  IMHO, our society has conditioned them to follow the adults' lead, and they have a hard time comprehending that they can do what they want, within BSA guidelines, as a patrol.

That is exactly right. And by the same token, the adults have conditioned themselves to be reactionary in leading their children. That is just as hard to comprehend and change. The best Scoutmasters are salesmen of their product. 

 

Barry

[MattR 2659]

Go for it!

 

Just from my own experience last week, take it for whatever you want:

 

New PLs that haven't seen this work before seem to have a much easier time leading a small group of scouts. All those adults that want 12+ kids in a patrol create a nightmare for a kid. Even 6-8 scouts is hard on a new PL. They could easily handle 4.

 

An older scout said he'd like to be SPL some day so I asked him to camp with a younger patrol and give some tips to the PL. Given the lack of focus of the older scout he did not get in the way. In fact the PL said it was great. This is the same PL that really struggled at summer camp.

[cyclops 55]

"Turning a big ship" is a perfect analogy. Just keep at it and know that in the long run it will eventually turn.

[Stosh 3452]

"Turning a big ship" is a perfect analogy. Just keep at it and know that in the long run it will eventually turn.

,,,, said the Captain of the Titanic.

 

[Hedgehog 334]

I have also discovered that they ask a ton of "can we do this", "Is it time for" type questions. The older boys are having a tough time when my answer is "I have no idea you make a decision" the younger ones are all over it though. I am also finding myself giving a lot more direction than I want when it comes to activities and how the meetings should be running.

 

My favorite line to use for the younger scouts is "Obviously, you have mistaken me for someone who is in charge.  I"m not."  That usually prompts a question of who is in charge (assuming another adult).  I turn it around and ask them, "who do you think is in charge?"  It usually takes two guesses to come to the SPL / PL.  For the older scouts, it is a simple statement, "I"m not in charge, you are."  As for the "can we do this?" question, my response is "if it is legal and not against the guide to safe scouting, the answer is you can do anything you decide to."

[Stosh 3452]

My standard answer is, "What did your PL say about it?"  The only one that can ask a question to the adults is the SPL if there is one, and the PL's if there isn't.  The adults are there to provide "2-deep leadership" which loosely translated for us is legalese for covering BSA's butt and drinking coffee.  Training for the process is the responsibility of the boys who were originally trained by the adults who are now retired.  

[Sentinel947 1205]

My favorite lines. 

"What do you think?" 
"What do YOU want?" Capitals as emphasis.
"You're the boss." (to the PL or SPL.) 
"Have you asked your PL?"
"Have you asked your SPL?" 
"Have you asked your patrol?" to PLs. 

I actually have a story from a few months ago. The SPL and ASPL were discussing something for the weekend camping trip. They come up to me, and ask their question. (I forget what it was.). I reply. "I dunno, what do you two think?". The ASPL turns to the SPL and says. "I told you that's what he'd say!!!" Good times...Good times. 

Sentinel947