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ham_solo

Wilderness First Aid: Training Disucssion Thread

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Couple of things.

 

1) Agree with the pencil whipping comment. IMHO, and I know many will disagree. but doing away with the Skill Awards has contributed to that occurring. One thing mandated by the adults in my son's, and I will continue to do, is during the January lock in, working on/reviewing First Aid skills. I think knowing first aid is a vital skill, and wish First Aid MB was required for First Class Scout again.

 

2) In regards to epi-pens laws vary from state-state. In some states, only the person who the epi-pen is prescribed to can administer it, or someone approved by their parent/guardian. Some states allow anyone with training to administer it. Plus there are professional/licensing issues.  One of my coworkers has issues requiring an epi-pen. We were told that if they ever goes into shock and needs the epi-pen, we need to make darn sure that their hand is on the epi-pen and we are "aiding" them in administering  the drug as there are legal issues for me and licensing issues fro the RNs.

 

3) Threats of lawsuits are real even if frivolous. I had someone tell me I should sue the leader who pulled me out of the water for dislocating my shoulder prior to my surgery. There was someone who rescued a coworker from an auto accident who sued her for injuries. And while I think and hope this is a joke, I read about a lady suing her rescuer for rape because he touched her "inappropriately" to do CPR and was was giving mouth-to-mouth.

 

4) Nowadays, it is easier and cheaper to settle out of court than to defend yourself. A doctor in MS is the best case for that. He's Junior and in one specialty, while his deceased father, Senior, was an Ob-Gyn. One of Senior's patients decided to sue Junior, despite repeated attempts telling them Senior died. Long story short, Junior had to hire a lawyer, take time out of his practice, prepare for court, AD NAUSEUM, in order for the judge to dismiss the case within 30 minutes at trial. OH and expenses were out of pocket becuase Junior's malpractice insurance lawsuits from HIS patients, not just any malpractice lawsuit.

 

5) Even knowing all of the possible negative repercussions, and dealing with an injury resulting from an attempt to rescue someone, I would do it again in a heartbeat. I would expect someone to do everything they could to help out one of my kids, and I will do the same.  I know I could not live with myself otherwise.

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@@Eagle94-A1

 

Yep, every step of the way, and the worst feeling in the world is showing up to treat an injury knowing that no matter what you do, it's not going to help.  I was team lead on my ambulance squad for many years.  I was involved in 14 CPR situations, even when we witnessed it.  Procedures were follow precisely, airway tubes put in, 100% oxygen pumped in by face mask and CPR compression done by certified CPR American Heart Association Instructors who annually met technique standards of recording Annies. and yet none of the patients survived.  We were 30 minutes from any medical facilities.  Sometimes it just isn't in the cards.

 

I knew at age 50 at Philmont that cardiac arrest was a possibility.... I went anyway.  I got dealt a good hand, not everyone does. 

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I knew at age 50 at Philmont that cardiac arrest was a possibility.... I went anyway.  I got dealt a good hand, not everyone does. 

 

Getting a full stress echo and test, as well as calcium scoring, is a good way to know where you are at on the heart disease spectrum. Do that every three to five years after 45. Before Obamacare my insurance covered nearly all of it, now just a fraction. However I do it anyway and I'm in the pink. All men should have that done if they are going to hang with the big dogs on high adventure.

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Naw, if I'm going to go the way I want, it's going to be along some less traveled trail than peacefully in bed in a nursing home.  I figure I would need a massive heart attack so there wouldn't be any pain when I hit the ground.  :)

 

That might sound rather flippant, but I'm dead serious.  (pun, of course, is deliberate.  :)  )+-

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There are no and will be no unit centric WFA requirements in 2016 coming out of the National Service Center unless something is going on in an organizational unit who doesn't own it.......It could be a local council policy.   WFA is program centric, for example the Philmont Trek programs require it.     Your local council could be using this as a means to manage their trek program as well.   

 

It remains recommended at a unit level.     

 

There are several providers teaching the BSA Curriculum.   American Red Cross and ECSI are two that the BSA has worked with to develop instructor capacity.   

 

If you can't find instructors in your area, those with instructor credentials can transition into WFA teaching roles.  

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If the BSA is going to require it, they will need to make it easy and affordable to acquire it. 

 

 

 

This !!! this is what bothers me more than anything really.  1 that I am a volunteer (and love it BTW) but I laugh because I have to pay to get the training that is required!  lol I really laugh.  All scouts deserve a trained leader, that I agree with TOTALLY.  Just wish Districts could assist with the finances. 

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I don't mind paying for meals at training, or having the option to bring my own.  If I wanted to have certain training, i.e. WB and it's not required by BSA, then I should foot the bill.  But any training that is required, needs to be at no cost.  

 

My wife just dropped the Master Gardeners organization which she held office in for a few years.  Her rationale?  $200 to get certified and then $$ for various seminars, lectures and such to maintain certification and basically ended up weeding other people's project gardens throughout the city.  One doesn't need training for that.  The cost to benefit ration was way out of proportion.  End of story, she now weeds just her own garden and city gardens on her own time.  She also does work at the community food gardens where others will benefit from her volunteer hours.  She doesn't need to pay anything to volunteer there.

 

If BSA is going to compete for volunteers' free time, they better figure out the system on how others are winning and BSA is finding people have no time to help out.  Another case of BSA's failed decision making policies.

Edited by Stosh

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Thankfully our unit reimburses us for advanced "required" training. After giving up our paid leave and paying for the opportunity to staff a high adventure crew, paying for the required training seems nonsensical.

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I had a meeting at the council office this past week, and while I was there I was talking to a group of training chairs from several of the area districts that they all went to training recently where they learned that starting in 2016, EVERY troop will be required to have 2 people with Wilderness First Aid certification.  I know this was required for Philmont etc, but it sounds like starting in 2016 it will be required for all outings.  

 

 

First of all is this true? Has anyone else heard this?

 

If so, can we all complain that this has not been communicated to anyone and it is only 3 months until 2016?   

 

Will there be a huge number of more WFA classes?  They are only offered 2 times a year in my area, how are all these leaders going to meet this new requirement?

 

Sounds like a great idea to me, but I can't imagine that it will be required for all outings in 2016.

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<<

Not sure if it is a national requirement or not, but having one WFA trained adult is required for all backcountry outing in our Council.  I can't imagine any parent letting their child go on a backcountry adventure without having someone appropriately trained and I can't imaging being responsible for the safety of a group of boys without having that training.

 

We have at least 4 adults in our Troop that have WFA training -- typicaly two of them go on every outing - backcountry or not.>>

 

 

 

Fine,  for your troop. 

 

But it's pointlessly burdensome for a lot of troops.  The list of training required for a SM or AS is already too long.

 

And frankly,  it's overkill for backpacking,  in my experience.  In the Seattle area,  the Seattle Mountaineers organizes a lot of outdoor outings. Mountaineering Oriented First Aid is required for climbers,  not backpackers, snowshoers, cyclists, cross country skiers and so on.

 

My council recently started requiring annual YPT  --- another pointlessly excessive regulation.

 

I took a test to get my driver's license forty years ago  --- do you think they should start requiring annual driver's tests to drive high speed vehicles around with current accident rates?

 

Frankly,  I've about had it with Scouting.  They are driving the program into the ground.

 

Well, I think it's a good idea for a troop that does more than just plop camping, but from my googling, I can't find any evidence that this is a national thing. It might be the OP's local council floating the idea.

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I took a "wilderness first aid" course from an EMT and he told me there is no standard for what such a course should be. He just did more training than the standard red cross. So I doubt there will be a requirement. It was a really good course and our troop paid for half of it.

 

The training we got included quite a bit that is not in the first aid MB. Things like checking for spinal injuries.

 

About epipens, those are by prescription only and dosed by the weight of the person that needs it, so you can't just carry an extra and give it to someone. Give one to an 80 lb kid that is set for a 200 lb adult and you could get sued, not to mention kill the kid if you give it to him incorrectly. Epipens are only good for 10 to 20 minutes anyway. Benadryl is what you want in your first aid kit.

 

Another important item they taught us is that we can not get in over our training. If you don't know how to reset a dislocated shoulder than don't try. Given how painful that can be I can see people trying, especially if they're days from help.

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There are no and will be no unit centric WFA requirements in 2016 coming out of the National Service Center unless something is going on in an organizational unit who doesn't own it.......It could be a local council policy.   WFA is program centric, for example the Philmont Trek programs require it.     Your local council could be using this as a means to manage their trek program as well.   

 

It remains recommended at a unit level.     

 

There are several providers teaching the BSA Curriculum.   American Red Cross and ECSI are two that the BSA has worked with to develop instructor capacity.   

 

If you can't find instructors in your area, those with instructor credentials can transition into WFA teaching roles.

Thank you for that clarification, Richard.

 

For those newer forum members who may not be aware, RichardB is the health-and-safety guy at National, so this information is straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

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MattR,

 

National BSA has come up with some standards that approved providers agree to use for WFA.

Here's a link http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-008.pdf

 

Interesting document,  Now more than ever, I would find it difficult to justify $150 to sit through what I already know.  Every lesson has a evacuation procedure attached to it and most say go fast or go really fast, it's life threatening.  So how does one comfort the patient for 2 days because from your training you have a pretty good idea that this person isn't going to survive the situation because you aren't going anywhere for 2-3 days?

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Took EMT course decades ago in college.  Worked 5 miles from a wilderness area for 4 summers.  2 of my kids became EMTs in HS.  Took Scouts on a week long trek to a true wilderness setting where medivac helicopters cannot fly due to altitude so the military would have to be called in.  I fully agree Philmont is not wilderness.  I have been WFA certified twice.

 

I think WFA is a useful course that teaches you a few things and one useful thing.  If something happens out there as a Scouter - you are screwed.  Don't treat something severe and the Scout dies.  Treat the Scout, in ways you would never dream of treating if at home, and the Scout dies.  Treat the Scout and IF he lives odds are good some type of permanent injury so even if you saved the kid's life if the parents are jerks you get sued and lose your house.

 

The one useful thing learned?  In a wilderness setting an ounce of prevention is not worth a pound of cure but rather half a ton of cure.  It helps you plan well to avoid being in a win-less situation.  Required for outings for BSA?  Would be a joke.  Too expensive and not enough places offer it.  Require for a wilderness trek?  Not a bad idea.   

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