Changing a Troop's Culture, Balancing Boy-led versus Adult-led

[berestie 0]

   

[NJCubScouter 1389]

berestie, welcome to the forums!  I have "approved" your first post here even though it consists only of smiley faces, in the expectation that your future contributions will include some actual words.  

[Stosh 3452]

@@berestie

 

Welcome to the forum.  :)

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

BERSTIE,

 

 

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

 

All,

 

if you red my question on how to your units conduct elections and appoint positions, then you have a bit of an update.

 

Elections, which should have been easy and smooth, turned into a long convoluted process. Long story short, you cannot nominate yourself, you need to be nominated for office. AND everyone seemed like they needed to reciprocate by nominating the person who nominated them for the same position

And it's kinda a "tradition" that you don't vote for yourself. At least that's what my son told me. Found out last nite when the unit did OA elections and we were talking about them. That and some other things the OA didn't do or say, but that's a different story.

 

An aside, never plan a unit election the same nite as a Cross Over ceremony, when the bulk of your election team are on the ceremony team as well.

 

BACK ON TOPIC.

 

While the SPL and  PLS were elected, unfortunately the rest of them were appointed by the SM. Folks were nominated for the various positions, but he appointed them. Not too happy about that as well, especially since I know one appointment was made because  an ASM plans on doing the bulk of the work since he is a gear junkie.

 

 

Campout this weekend was OK, but we had issues.  new SPL didn't plan anything because the SM told him he would take care of it. I personally was not happy about that, and we did have some bored Scouts and visiting Webelos. Not how SPL or I envisioned it.

 

NSP had some arguing about stuff bought, not bought, and lost. I had to intervene to prevent a parent from going off on some of the Scouts. Long story short, Dad worked with scout prior to the trip and told the scout he should get some clarifications on items on the list to make sure the son bought the right stuff. Son did get clarification, and he shopped for the list as specified. Dad was the one who took him shopping, but did not interfere. Again  if it wasn't on the list, the Scout did not buy it. When the patrol started getting ticked off and call the scout an idiot, dad almost went ballistic. I jumped in and worked with them. I'd rather they get a talk about how things work and Scout Spirit from me than an angry parent.

 

An aside; funny thing is the guy calling folks "idiot" was the one who when he was suppose to shop, grandma did it for him, went overbudget buying stuff not on the list or more food than the list stated, and ended up paying out of pocket for a good bit of it. And about 1/3 of the food was thrown away because it was too much or improperly stored.

 

Dinner was "interesting" in that for the most part the scout were left alone. Very hard for the parent to do and one of the ASMs. One idea to distract adults, playing card games. that kept them busy a good bit. Kids had some issues, but dealt with it themselves. Adults got involved when it was discovered the NSP  didn't have cleaning supplies. We did a trade: cleaning supllies in exchange for them doing our dishes. The adults were happy with that, but don't think the Scouts were.

 

The NSP also had problems in that the duty roster they came up with was incomplete, missing information, and the TG and PL were having issues with who was suppose to do what. While they eventually got that settled, they  did get a reminder that the duty roster needs to be complete. Frustrating that the TG needed a reminder about the completeness of menus. But glad that he worked out issues that were arising in regards to cooking and KP. Yep, one Scout wanted to be a slacker and not do KP properly.

 

Morning was a charlie foxtrot. took the NSP 4 hours to cook, do KP, and strike camp. It was bad enough that parents were showing up to pick up the kids, and one of them got involved. He's is now moving from WDL to some troop position, so it's going to get interesting. Need to get him trained and OUT OF THE SCOUTS' HAIR.  He was the one who bought the food for the patrol previously. He was complaining about the chaos that is the  NSP and has jumped in once before.

 

On a positive note, they were able to camp spread out. They cooked under the same shelter, which caused some headaches, but overall they were doing stuff as patrols.

 

We got a lock in next month. Because of the improper food storage situation and issues with KP 2 months ago, and almost this weekend before the TG nipped it in the bud, we have a retired health inspector coming in to talk about the importance of storing food properly and cleaning properly.  I'm hoping it has some "cool" photos and isn't boring lecture. That was adult driven.

 

But after rock climbing, we will be having a "field day." Troop spent money getting supplies for the Scouts, and as I've mentioned, some of the supplies were not taken care of and thrown away, or are missing. Patrols have not kept inventories, despite repeated suggestions to do so. While the Field Day was essentially an adult decision, we do have buy in from most of the Scouts as they are sick of other patrols borrowing stuff and not returning it.

 

And I think that's another issue. Instead of always  having three patrols, we have been combining them from time to time based upon numbers. In fact I want to say the last time the NSP used their patrol box was the camp out I got injured at.

 

Long journey ahead.

[qwazse 4344]

@@Eagle94-A1, you got nowhere to go but up!

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

An update.

 

Looks like we may have a new SM. My friend may be taking on the job since he is no longer affiliated with the pack. We'll see how long that lasts since one son is a Webelos, and step-son will be a Tiger next year. Plus his job. But he did say that with the abundance of adult leaders to help, we should have no problems. His approval as SM is in the hands of the troop committee and church committee. Thankfully he's a member of the church, and former youth minister.

 

New SPL so far has taken the job seriously. Haven't worked with him since the Christmas Party though. But he does wants to adults to butt out a bit, only helping when asked. I hadn't told him my son's idea of only having 1 adult in the meeting room with the rest in another room.

 

While we technically have 2 NSPs, in actuality we only have 1. The other is more a mixed aged patrol, they just haven't focused on advancement. Funny thing is, the 30 days of exercises is holding most back from Tenderfoot, and talking to the SM for Second and First Class.

 

The actual NSP only got one new Scout from the Cross Over this month. The other 2 went to a nearby troop. That's fine. And in some aspects we needed a break from growth. The NSP needs some help, and we need to get the troop up to speed ASAP. One of the local packs that normally Crosses Over in December decided to hold back to March and the council Webeloree. DL wants to make a big production of the Cross Over at Webeloree. It will be the first Webeloree Cross Over in about 3 or 4 years as most troops in our area do Cross Over in the December through February range. So we may be getting 5 more. I do know that the WDL wants to keep the den at the CO's troop. Now if we could only get the CO's troop involved with the pack.

 

We need to get ready for next year. There is the potential to get up to 18 new Scouts from my troop's CO's pack. Yep, they have 18 Webelos. And I have a feeling that my middle son, who is in another pack, will bring over his 10 man den. Sadly the pack's brother troop is not doing much with them.  So even if we get half of the possible 28, that's still two NSPs!

 

We do calendar years for planning purposes, not traditional program years. So the Annual Planning Conference was just done. The camp outs and activities are not as "adventurous" as some would like. But maybe that is what we need to get the two actual NSP patrols completely up to speed and doing thing correctly.  I have a feeling that if we get 14 new Scouts next year, we will need to go "old school" and have "Traditional Patrols" and a venture patrol for the older Scouts in troop level leadership roles. I really do think having everyone mixed up helps transition and camping out more.

[Eagledad 2779]

How many scouts total do you have now and at what age?

 

Our troop started with 17 scouts and averaged 25 new scouts a year for the next 10 years. I can't even begin to tell you the challenges of a fast growing "boy run" troop. Let's just say we did more things wrong than we did right. And I fully agree that mixed age troops are better performers for boy run programs. But there are a few situations where NSPs fit better for new scouts. At least for the first few months.

 

As much as new scouts think they like the independence of a troop program when they join, they quickly find the chaos of boys making decisions in their new lifestyle a bit unnerving. New scouts require some special attention for their first few months to help them appreciate and enjoy the benefits of independence.

 

BSA data shows that if a scout stays active in a troop for one year, they will likely stay with that troop several years. My observation of hundreds of new scouts shows that if the new scout stays active after summer camp, he will likely stay for several years. 

 

Barry

[blw2 433]

How many scouts total do you have now and at what age?

 

Our troop started with 17 scouts and averaged 25 new scouts a year for the next 10 years. I can't even begin to tell you the challenges of a fast growing "boy run" troop. Let's just say we did more things wrong than we did right. And I fully agree that mixed age troops are better performers for boy run programs. But there are a few situations where NSPs fit better for new scouts. At least for the first few months.

 

As much as new scouts think they like the independence of a troop program when they join, they quickly find the chaos of boys making decisions in their new lifestyle a bit unnerving. New scouts require some special attention for their first few months to help them appreciate and enjoy the benefits of independence.

 

BSA data shows that if a scout stays active in a troop for one year, they will likely stay with that troop several years. My observation of hundreds of new scouts shows that if the new scout stays active after summer camp, he will likely stay for several years. 

 

Barry

I know this is a side track to this discussion, but I'm really puzzled by this energy put into NSP vs mixed age and all the forced shuffling that happens because of it

 

I keep remembering that the patrol concept grew out of a naturally formed "group of friends", the neighborhood "gang".  These would naturally be boys that

 a) Have compatible personalities and interests

 b) probably live near each other, and 

 c) and are generally close in age, likely most of the time in the same grade but might naturally include a few that are one grade or so higher or one grade or so lower

 

so by my thinking, the NSP is really a natural progression

and in keeping with the idea that patrols should be kept intact as BP wrote in Aides to Scoutmastership, and which only seems natural taht good friends would stick together through their scouting career, so except for an occasional shift in a scout or two it doesn't make sense to me that we would be having all of this patrol shuffling.... 

and then the troop naturally becomes a "mixed age" troop made up of older patrols and younger patrols

In this mode, then the Patrol Guide &/or SPL, being one of the older experienced boys, really become a key position for every scout and every patrol as they move along through their scouting career... not just while in a "New Scout Patrol"...

 

THEN the Scouts, in a patrol of their friends and given the independance, are having fun doing what's interesting to him and his patrol group and so they naturally become more motivated and grow in character as Scouts

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

BLW,

 

Prior to 1989, the only types of patrols were the "Traditional" or mixed-aged patrol, and an older Scout patrol. The older Scout patrol has gone through various changes, both in program and name.

 

The idea of the traditional or mixed aged patrol was two fold:  first was to get a bunch of buddies together with similar intersts. But the second was to get Scouts of different abilities and expereince working together. Older Scouts in the patrol helped the younger scouts. The older Scouts in the patrol were the ones who taught vartious scoutcraft skills, in my expereince by buddying up with one or two new scouts.

 

When my troop tried the NSP idea in 1986 as part of the experiment, it was a complete and utter failure. One person could not teach and work effectively with a bunch of new scouts. We lost a few Scouts because we did have a lot of problems on camp outs that the other patrols did not have. We went back to mixed aged patrols in 1987.

 

When a new, patrol -sized, troop was formed, they went camping and did things with us to help them get on their feet. This was circa 1990, and that "troop" had major issues as no one had the basic T-2-1 Skills mastered. Eventually that troop merged with us, and the patrol was split into existing patrols. Never again did they put all the new scouts in one patrol.

 

I want to say the NSP concept came from how the LDS troops are organized. All 11 year olds are in one patrol, with adults working with them until they turn 12. If you look at BSA training materials, it says the NSP has a NSP ASM assigned to them in addition to a TG.I do not like that because under the traditional patrol method, the only time adutls get involved is for safety, and if the Scouts can't teach somehting.

[blw2 433]

true for recent past maybe, but my line of thinking is coming from writings of Baden Powell and interviews of Green Bar Bill, so it predates 1989 by just a bit.

 

I was a cub in the 1970's and a scout in the early 1980's, and I honestly have no memory of how the patrols were formed up in my troop. Whatever it was, the program didn't hold my interest so I ended up dropping after not very much time in.... so my memory is fuzzy.  The sad part of that sidetrack story is that I clearly like scout stuff, and I always have liked doing the things that scouts do.... so it's sad in a way that I gained little or no benefit from the program.

[Eagledad 2779]

Blw2. you are reinterpreting the founders to fit within your vision of a program design. You won't find Powell Green Bar Bill talking about same age patrols because their patrol design required older scouts to develop growth of all the ages within the patrols. And while I understand the bias that is based from your experience, you should at least remember that mixed age patrols worked very successfully for almost 90 years. 

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm open minded with folks trying different approaches to get better performance. Hey, we tried same age patrols and learned a lot from the experience. 

 

But your post reminded me of a big difference adults have with today's patrol methods compared to my troop's adults in the 70s. As a team, most patrols in the 70s basically had an equal balance of skills and competed fairly with each other in scouting activities. Even patrols from different troops had that same basic level of skills. Today young scouts aren't expected to associate fairly with the other patrols because they lack the skills and experience of the more experienced patrols. That by it's nature forces the young scouts into a different level of activities than the rest of the troop. I find that difference of adult thought strange and nonsensical, especially for a boy run program. But then, I came from the 70s.

 

When we started my son's new troop, I had an expectation for the scouts and the patrols based from my experience as a scout. I have noticed that Eagle94's expectations are based from his experiences. I'm curious, since you don't have much scouting experience as a youth, where do the expectations for your scouts came from? I'm not trying to be condescending or put you down, we all have a lot to contribute to the forum. But I can't imagine how you take the next step without the foundation of experience to draw a vision.

 

Barry

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Yep, I'm using my experiences as a guide.

 

As to using BP's and GBB's literature, if you read it does it say anywhere about boys joining as an entire den at one time? I don't think you will find one as that concept is a relatively new one.

 

It used to be boys joined Boy Scouts as soon as they turned 12, then it was dropped to 11. I don't know when the concept of entire dens crossing over at one time came out, but I know it wasn't a big deal like it is today in the early 80s.

 

As Eagledad said, dividing up the new Scouts had some benefits.

 

1) No single patrol is at a disadvantage. Let's face it during any type of competition, the NSP will have a big disadvantage in regards to skills. Venture patrol runs the competition and acts as judges, all the other patrols compete on an even keel with a mixture of experienced and new Scouts.

 

2) One Scout alone cannot teach a patrol of new Scouts.  This is not only based upon my experience as the "troop guide" ( I was appointed the PL of the NSP back in the day), but also on my observations and experiences as an adult. I remember being overwhelmed at times as a youth, and I have observed either more older Scouts having to get involved, the troop guide being overwhelmed, or worst adults getting involved. The last campout is the best example. TG was working so hard trying to supervise dinner and KP, that the patrol campfire was neglected. No campfire for them. Then the next morning, again TG was focused on dealing with cooking and KP issues that striking tents was not done as the PL had no experience and was clueless as to what needed to be done. Unfortunately adults got involved.

 

In a mixed aged patrol, experienced Scouts buddy up with new Scouts to do the various jobs, insuring that things get done. PL usually is an experienced Scout who has some knowledge, skills, and abilities to get jobs done without adults getting involved.

 

3) Gives the experienced Scouts a taste of teaching, leading, and ownership. THEY are responsible for training the next group of Scouts in the troop. That mentorship is a great bond building tool. I know I' m still in contact with my PL, and SPLs from my old troop to this day.

[Hedgehog 334]

We tried a New Scout Patrol last year.  The plan was to isolate the crossovers until the end of the year so as not to disrupt the existing patrols.  After two weeks, the NSP Guides talked to the SPL and ASPL and they came to the adults requesting that we abandon the project and just integrate them to the regular patrols.  We did.

 

I think that it makes no sense to have a NSP camp on its own.  We have more than 10 new boys joining each year and I can't see how you can have the group of them go camping without the adults interfering.  Heck, it is hard enough to keep any adults that cross over out of the way of the boys.  

 

In reading your post about the last campout, there seems to be a lot of adult expectations of what is the right way to do things.  Adult expectations are the downfall of boy led.

 

We never required our guys to do duty rosters.  Over the last couple of campouts, when we did start, stop & continue, the boys felt that not everyone was helping out equally.  The adults asked, "how did you divide up the jobs that needed to be done?"  The response from the PLs was "we just found whoever was standing around and asked them to help."  We then asked "Any ideas for a better way?"  The response was to use duty rosters like the were required to do at summer camp.  So we now have duty rosters, not as an adult imposed requirement, but as something the boys have developed.

 

On the last campout, there was some issues about the menu.  A couple of guys were tired of the same old thing (especially since the adult patrol eats very well).  A couple of guys didn't like what their grubmasters had planned to cook.  A couple of the dishes didn't come out really well.  My question was "how do you solve that problem?"  The answer was that the PLs and APLs (or the patrols as a whole) need to work together with the grubmaster to decide on the menu and that the rest of the patrol needs to help out more in the cooking.

 

Part of the transition to being more boy-led is letting the boys know they are in charge.  Ask them how they can solve their own problems.  They often have better solutions than the adults.  Isn't that what real leadership is?  Working with a group to solve problems.   Ask your boys what they think the answer is and then respond with four words, "OK, then do it."

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Hedgehog,

 

ROTFLMBO!

 

The duty roster story reminded me of one of the biggest issues.

 

Now the folks in the NSP have been in the troop anywhere from 6-8 months, with one guy coming aboard last December. So they have some camping experience and know why a duty roster is important. Also their troop guide was a PL, so he knows as well.

 

WWWWEEEEELLLLL the duty roster was just a list of working pairs with no meals or duties listed. Just a bunch of names on a grid. And no one but the TG had a copy of it, and it was in a book. Grant you I had to intervene, because an argument was going on and nothing was getting done. Asking questions was the way to get them to realize how  they can imporve the process.

 

 

For got to add, the only expectation was camp to be broken by a certain time and give them the chance to goof off before leaving. Took over 4 hours to cook, clean, and break camp.

 

One more update.

 

Talking to oldest about the situation and asked his opinion on some things. Asked what he thought of splitting up the mixed age patrol and having the NSP divide up in May when we do elections. Said it it wouldn't work as there are some issues between the two patrols. Asked for his idea, and he said just add new scouts to the existing patrols and divide the patrols when we need to.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Eagle94-A1

[blw2 433]

Blw2. you are reinterpreting the founders to fit within your vision of a program design. You won't find Powell Green Bar Bill talking about same age patrols because their patrol design required older scouts to develop growth of all the ages within the patrols. And while I understand the bias that is based from your experience, you should at least remember that mixed age patrols worked very successfully for almost 90 years. 

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm open minded with folks trying different approaches to get better performance. Hey, we tried same age patrols and learned a lot from the experience. 

 

But your post reminded me of a big difference adults have with today's patrol methods compared to my troop's adults in the 70s. As a team, most patrols in the 70s basically had an equal balance of skills and competed fairly with each other in scouting activities. Even patrols from different troops had that same basic level of skills. Today young scouts aren't expected to associate fairly with the other patrols because they lack the skills and experience of the more experienced patrols. That by it's nature forces the young scouts into a different level of activities than the rest of the troop. I find that difference of adult thought strange and nonsensical, especially for a boy run program. But then, I came from the 70s.

 

When we started my son's new troop, I had an expectation for the scouts and the patrols based from my experience as a scout. I have noticed that Eagle94's expectations are based from his experiences. I'm curious, since you don't have much scouting experience as a youth, where do the expectations for your scouts came from? I'm not trying to be condescending or put you down, we all have a lot to contribute to the forum. But I can't imagine how you take the next step without the foundation of experience to draw a vision.

 

Barry

True and one hand... I know of nothing that specifically defines same age patrols.... but that also reminds me that I know of nothing that they said or wrote that says you can't have it that way.

Regardless, perhaps you're right...except in at least one point.  I'm not reading into what they wrote to "fit into my vision".   Fact is, I had no vision prior to my study.  My interpretation yes, but not my vision.  I would say that my interpretation evolved over time.  It wasn't a single thing I read or heard that led me to it.  Maybe it's wrong, but it certainly holds some salt.

Oh one other point where you're misunderstanding me a bit.... I'm not thinking they should be "same aged" at all either.  That's far too rigid.  It can most certainly be mixed age.  I'm just thinking about how natural groups of friends form in boys and kids in general.

 

My apologies....This will be a bit long, but please bear with me and read on....

 

Last year when I was pushed aside from my CM duties, I was in a way happy because it freed me up to start paying more attention here to troop level conversations, as well as do more reading on the topic, listening to podcasts, etc....  I listened to an old recorded interview of Green Bar Bill.  I thumbed through the original "Scouting for Boys" and I read Aids to Scoutmastership.  i also listed to a particularly interesting podcast presentation and interview of "The Scouting Party", which was about Seton, Baden-Powell, and Beard.

 

During my study, I only started to best understand the benefit of the "Patrol Method" once I read some things about how the early patrols formed naturally.  We've all heard the story of how Baden Powell found that boys back in England were using his book to play the game of scouting... this being what inspired the creation of his Boy Scouts.  Who were these groups of friends that were playing scouts?

 

In his book Aids to Scoutmastership, he wrote "From the boys’ point of view Scouting puts them into fraternity-gangs which is their natural Organisation, whether for games, mischief, or loafing; it gives them a smart dress and equipment; it appeals to their imagination and romance; and it engages them in an active, open-air life."

 

"... their natural Organisation..." to me implies similar age and interest only because that's all I've ever known and seen.  When I was a kid, there was a group of boys in the neighborhood.  Most of us lived on the same street or within a block.  We were mostly the same age, in the same grade, at the same school.  We had some older and younger brothers in the mix but they were usually no more than a grade or two away in either direction.  Some of these boys came from larger families and had brothers and sisters that were much older and some that were much younger than us.  They didn't run with us and we didn't run with them.  They had different interests and different abilities.  Besides that, they had their own "fraternity-gangs" to run with, so why would they want to hang with the little kids?.  We interacted together, but only on rare occasion.  

 

Think of things that happen naturally, such as sand lot pickup ball games.  There may be some age mixing, and naturally the older boys might be more capable than the younger ones.  Perhaps the older kids would be helping the other kids in some way.  they might be helping to teach.... or they might be helping by inspiring the younger ones in the challenge to keep up.

 

This idea also occurs in countless stories, movies, and tv shows where there will be a gang, a fraternity, a team, or just a group of friends that are all similar in age.  It happens in youth sports too.

 

and then think about yourself as a kid.  When you were 16 or 17, did you really enjoy spending a huge amount of time with 10 and 11 year old boys?

 

Now what sounds more fun and motivating for a Scout, hang with his true friends and peers, or get split from those guys and hang all weekend with a mixed group of acquaintances?

 

I'm not thinking that there should be no interaction.  Not at all. Actually this idea of structure lends itself well to healthy interaction of good character, where the older boys are like ideal big brothers, that from time help the younger ones to get up to speed, to coach and to teach. To introduce their younger "brothers" to the troop and to introduce them to new things.  Then challenge them to catch up!  It encourages interaction between the older and the younger in a way of good character.

 

all of this thinking still fits with another statement in Aids to Scoutmastership,

"The Patrol System is the one essential feature in which Scout training differs from that of all other organisations, and where the System is properly applied, it is absolutely bound to bring success. It cannot help itself!"