Questions For Webelos Troop Visits

[fred johnson 936]

I don't see a problem with that suggestion in that people do it all the time.  When was the last time one called ahead to notify a church that they will be coming to visit?  How about the YMCA?  Boy & Girls Club? A private school?  Why would it be any different for a Boy Scout troop or pack unless they aren't really buying into the whole "Be Prepared" concept.

 

Nothing rude about someone taking an interest in the group and checking them out.

 

The other issue is they playing field is not equal.  Webelos parents often have ties to troops.  Neighbors.  Adult scouting friends.  Or, their older son is in the troop.  I'd hope the troop of your charter org has access and knowledge about the pack and den schedules.  

 

As such, the "surprise" may or may not be a surprise.  

[Stosh 3452]

I have had plenty of "drop in" visitors checking out the troop over the years.  No big deal.  If they come announced, they get attention and a welcome.  If unannounced, they generally sit in the back with the adults and observe what is going on.  One can learn a lot without having to participate.  Even then one of the PL's usually comes over and has the boy visitors come and at least "sit with them" and participate when appropriate. Generally one of the patrols has a Plan-B up their sleeve and when someone comes to visit unannounced, they switch gears and host them.  On the other hand, the other patrols, went on with what they normally would have done.  One can make it as dramatic as they wish.  And they can be righteously indignant all they want.  But, courtesy dictates, one graciously roll with the punches and does their best...with a smile.

 

The wedding reception analogy is not even in the same ball park.  Anyone can attend a wedding.  It's a public ceremony if held in a church.  One cannot close off a sanctuary for a "private ceremony".  The reception, on the other hand, is always invite only.  Even when I was a pastor I did not attend the reception unless invited and my wife most certainly did not unless the invitation expressly stated it.  I never assumed I was a guest for the rehearsal dinner either.

 

I don't care if parents with Webelos boys show up, members of the CO coming to check up on us, or the POTUS shows up, "Be Prepared."

[fred johnson 936]

 

I have had plenty of "drop in" visitors checking out the troop over the years.  No big deal.  

 

Being not a big deal does not excuse rudeness.  Troops can usually easily scramble.  It's just common courtesy to coordinate your visit.

 

 

... courtesy dictates, one graciously roll with the punches and does their best...with a smile.

 

Courtesy does not dictate one roll with the punches.  I challenge you to find that in any etiquette book.  Yes, always be polite.  But being polite does not mean throwing your plans away because someone appears unannounced.  It is the hosts option whether to welcome or ask them to come back another time.  ... Sometimes I you are just making this stuff up to have something to say.  

 

 

The wedding reception analogy is not even in the same ball park.  Anyone can attend a wedding.  It's a public ceremony if held in a church.  One cannot close off a sanctuary for a "private ceremony".  The reception, on the other hand, is always invite only.  Even when I was a pastor I did not attend the reception unless invited and my wife most certainly did not unless the invitation expressly stated it.  I never assumed I was a guest for the rehearsal dinner either.

 

???  what ???  Anyone can not attending a wedding.  Most churches will have no problem if you attend and sit in the back.  But most couples rent the church and have the right to choose their guests.  Having a few extra sit in the church and listen is usually not an issue.  But the bridal party through the church does have the right to ask guests to leave.  Heck, I've attended mass at St. Patrick's cathedral in New York and at times parts of the church are roped off for private ceremonies.  ... it is a choice of the church and/or bridal party whether the ceremony is open.  

 

Wedding reception is a good analogy as the reception is planned and has fixed resources.  You say it's an RSVP issue.  Some may say the same thing of a troop meeting. 

 

 

I don't care if parents with Webelos boys show up, members of the CO coming to check up on us, or the POTUS shows up, "Be Prepared."

 

Absolutely be prepared.  But that's yet again a different topic.  Being prepared doesn't justify the rudeness of not having the courtesy of letting someone know you are planning to visit. 

Edited August 16, 2015 by fred johnson

[Stosh 3452]

 

 

 

 

Being not a big deal does not excuse rudeness.  Troops can usually easily scramble.  It's just common courtesy to coordinate your visit.

 

 

 

Courtesy does not dictate one roll with the punches.  I challenge you to find that in any etiquette book.  Yes, always be polite.  But being polite does not mean throwing your plans away because someone appears unannounced.  It is the hosts option whether to welcome or ask them to come back another time.  ... Sometimes I you are just making this stuff up to have something to say.  

 

Queen Victoria was having tea with dignitaries from different backgrounds.  Some were not as refined as "proper society".  One of the guests poured his tea into the saucer (cools quicker) which was a huge social faux pas and everyone noticed.  Without saying a word, Queen Victoria poured her tea into her saucer as well.  One can always spot a class act.  This is one woman I would have really liked to have met.    

 

Mrs. Roosevelt was doing a spot inspection of various military installations and visited Tuskegee airbase.  She asked for someone to take her up for a flight.  They offered her one of the white instructors to take her up.  She insisted on one of the black students.  Another classy lady.

 

  

 

 

 

???  what ???  Anyone can not attending a wedding.  Most churches will have no problem if you attend and sit in the back.  But most couples rent the church and have the right to choose their guests.  Having a few extra sit in the church and listen is usually not an issue.  But the bridal party through the church does have the right to ask guests to leave.  Heck, I've attended mass at St. Patrick's cathedral in New York and at times parts of the church are roped off for private ceremonies.  ... it is a choice of the church and/or bridal party whether the ceremony is open.  

 

Obviously it varies from one denomination to the next.   Speaking from a professional position, my denomination held the sanctuaries to be open to all.   If one wanted a private ceremony, it was not held in the sanctuary.  The sanctuary is never for rent.  Church basement, yes, never the sanctuary.

 

Wedding reception is a good analogy as the reception is planned and has fixed resources.  You say it's an RSVP issue.  Some may say the same thing of a troop meeting. 

 

 

 

Absolutely be prepared.  But that's yet again a different topic.  Being prepared doesn't justify the rudeness of not having the courtesy of letting someone know you are planning to visit. 

 

Ever notice that the card is an announcement of the wedding, the SEPARATE invite put into the card is the RSVP for the private reception following.  The reason the little card is separate is because NOT EVERYONE GETS ONE, only those invited to the reception.

 

From what I can tell, and this might just be a local custom thingy, in our neck of the woods, BSA is not closed, private organization and we welcome visitors any time we have an activity.  We might have to put a bit of water in the soup and FHB a bit, but that's what being a class act is all about.

 

The last thing one wishes to do is to make one's guests feel uncomfortable.  That's not in any etiquette books maybe, but I picked it up as part of my religious training and I do pass it along to my boys.

 

I cannot be held accountable for what others do, I can only work with what I do and I choose to try and graciously accommodate any and all rudeness that comes my way.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Stosh

[KenD500 77]

When I say "After a scheduled visit, make sure to visit unannounced.  Does the unannounced meeting look/feel like the scheduled visit?", I don't mean as a Den.  I meant it as an individual Webelo & parent.

 

A Troop should be able to easily fit an individual Webelo into their meeting.  A den is a different story.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

 

"A Troop should be able to easily fit an individual Webelo into their meeting.  A den is a different story."

 

If a troop cannot do that, there is a problem. Troops should be able to handle any walk ins.

[KenD500 77]

My Troop might have a problem handling an unannounced Webelos Den depending upon the size of the Den and the skills instruction planned for that night.

[Hedgehog 334]

My advice, don't bother asking questions.  Just visit and observe what happens.

 

In our Troop we don't do anything different when Webelos visit.  That would completely disrupt our schedule because we have scouts from at least four packs that come and visit - usually on different days.  The Webelos are assigned by the SPL to one of the three patrols that isn't running the Troop portion of the meeting.  The PLs for those patrol answer any questions the scouts have and then run a regular patrol meeting.  During the patrol meetings the SPL meets with the parents and tells them about the troop, hands out our spring calendar and answers questions.  The SM and ASMs just sit back and watch.  The Webelos, the parents and the rest of the scouts return to the main room for the Troop portion of the meeting (an activity in line with the month's theme and then a game). The parents watch what we lovingly call controlled chaos.  At the end, we circle up, tell jokes and wrap it up.  You then hear all of the scouts coming to the parents and telling them they had so much fun.  After the fact, I've had parents tell me that their kids love the fact that the troop is boy-led.

[5yearscouter 52]

Yeah I can understand having a bit of kerfuffle over a den of 10+ webelos show up to the troop meeting unannounced,

but if the troop can't handle them visiting without x amt of notice that doesn't seem welcoming nor being prepared.

We should be prepared to have visitors and boys wanting to join at any meeting. 

 

At least have a one page info about the troop passed out to the parents and the boys willing to bring webelos into their patrols for the evening to observe and participate in as much as possible.  Sure you may not want to have the webelos chopping wood and making fires in totn chit and firemn chit classes, but there is no reason they can't sit thru some of the instruction and do the parts they can do. 

 

You don't have to make a whole separate meeting with fun and games to grab webelos scouts attention.  Remember in a few months they will be a part of the troop and you really don't want them to learn that they will be entertained and catered to at every meeting. 

 

We hope the parents or den leader gives us a heads up, so we can explain that x meeting will be troop elections where each scout looking for a leadership position stands up and says why they are qualified.  That can be a boring meeting.  There are a few other meetings of the year that can be boring for new webelos to sit in on, but most of them involve instruction, patrol time and games, which webelos should see how it really is, not how its fancied up just for them.

[5yearscouter 52]

_{this is the list my webelos parents used when we went visiting.}

 

_{To make it easier on the 4 troops we visited, we emailed the SM the list and let him answer in his own words.}

_{Usually that would get us a copy of any written documents,}

_{the troop calendar, info on cost, etc.}

 

_{Doesn't mean all their answers were correct, especially the boy led one, but it was a start.}

_{Parents sat and discussed the answers after our visit so they could go over the things they liked and didn't like.}

_{and the boys had their own discussion separate from the adults.}

 

_{When does the troop meet? 
Where? What time?
 
How large is the troop? How many of the registered boys are active?
Is the troop mostly older boys or younger boys?
How many boys advance to upper ranks or eagle scout?
 
Do they use new scout patrols, put boys in existing patrols or just one patrol?
Are there patrol meetings only within the troop meeting? or do patrols meet separately or have patrol outings?
 
How much does the troop cost for yearly registration?
Are there monthly dues on top of that?
What do monthly outings cost? does that include food?
What fundraisers does the troop do?  What time of year?
Does the troop fundraisers contribute to payment of scout camp for the boys or other boy expenses
 or only to the troop account?
Does the troop have any programs to help offset costs for boy's who cannot afford the costs of scouting? esp summer camp fees?
 
Does the troop go to district or council events? (Camporees, scouting for food, scoutfair, 10 commandment hike, etc)
Does the troop go to council summer camps?  Why or why not?
Does the troop go to Philmont or do high adventure or out of state camps?
What service projects or conservation projects does the troop regularlydo?
 
How frequent are hikes, campouts and other outdoor events?
Are outings on the same weekend each month?  1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th weekend?or random?
WHERE do you go camping and hiking?
How long are the campouts, 1 night, 2 nights, some 3 night campouts  on long weekends? when do weeklong campouts occur?
What are parent expectations on campouts and outings?
 
What does the troop do with the local pack? why or why not?
Are there any troop campouts or outings that the webelos could participate in before the end of their webelos year?
When do you like webelos to transition to the troop?
What does the troop do to ensure webelos stay in boy scouting when they transfer to the troop?
What does the troop do for recruiting of new scouts that weren't cub scouts?
What does the troop do if a boy misses meetings, or there are conflicts with sports or other events?
 
What is a normal troop meeting like?
Is the troop boy run or adult led? 
What do they say and what do you see actually happen in a meeting?
Who stands at the front of the meeting and runs the meeting and makes announcements?}

_{Does the troop have any unusual rules or expectations?
(I'm not sure how to describe it, but I've heard of some really weird things)
Are there written rules that parents can read?}

_{How many registered leaders does the troop have?
How many active adults are there in the troop?
How many leaders will the troop lose when older boys age out in this coming year or 2?
(may be key if say sm and asms and committee all have older scouts aging out about the time you join)
Are there any adult positions unfilled?}

_{How many years of experience does the scoutmaster have?
 
Do new scouts go to summer camp with your troop?
What does the troop do over the summer?
Should a new webelo go to summer camp with the troop, why or why not?
 
 Can we get a copy of your yearly calendar?
How do you communicate with families?
 
How do you utilize the advancement and merit badge program?
Do boys work on any merit badges or advancements as a troop or patrol or only on their own?
Does troop go to merit badge roundups/universities?}

_{What does this troop want to see Parents do?
 
What equipment is provided by the troop?
What equipment is expected of the scout?
Does the troop provide troop t-shirts, hats, neckerchief for free or what cost?
Does the troop provide at crossover
(some troops give neckerchiefs if you register with them, some books or other stuff once registration fee is paid)}

Edited August 17, 2015 by 5yearscouter

[Hedgehog 334]

To make it easier on the 4 troops we visited, we emailed the SM the list and let him answer in his own words.

 

If you sent that list to me, you would get a response like this:

 

You and the other adults can ask all of those questions to our Senior Patrol Leader when you come and visit -- he's in charge.  The boys can ask any questions they have to the Patrol Leader of the patrol they are assigned to for the meeting. I think that the decision of what Troop a boy joins should be his decision based on the things that are important to him -- not those things that are important to the adults.  Ultimately, the best person to ask questions to is your son and the best question to ask after the meeting is "did you have fun?"  Then listen to what he says.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Hedgehog

[Gone 435]

@@Hedgehog I think there's stuff kids want to know and stuff parents want to know. Sometimes we get lost in the boy-led discussion and forget that the Webelos haven't had that yet and parents (akela) are still very much the leaders.

 

When we were looking we spent a few meetings with the boys putting together their list of questions. Parents did the same. The boys asked the questions of the other boys while the parents got their questions answered by the SM.

 

There are considerations requiring adult review in the troop selecting process.

[Eagledad 2779]

I've told this story before, but at the Blue and Gold Banquet of my first year as a Cub Master, I was chatting with the Webelos who were crossing over into a troop that night and I asked them why they chose that troop. They said because they had the best game at the troop meetings. 80% of those boys dropped out of scouting by the end of that year.

 

I'm not a big fan of coaching scouts to ask a lot of questions at troop visits because boys this age like to feel the experience, not analyze it with an accumulation of facts. Oh, they should ask a couple questions that give them an idea of what to expect like: “what is the most fun thing you do in this troop and what are the best camp outs?â€.  AND, “what is the worst part of the troop?â€. Webelos don’t really understand boy run or merit badge mills or whatever, but they are experts in fun. Encourage them to get a feel if the troop is fun and why.

 

But searching for a troop should be a team effort with the adults and the boys working together. Most scouts who picked a troop without the help of adults quit in their first year. So the adults need to ask the structural questions that fill in the details of the cogs, pulleys and gears that move the troop from point A to point B. But you don’t have shoot a borage of questions at the SM like a machine gun. Some questions just don’t need to be asked. For example does any troop leader think their troop is not boy run or that they are a merit badge mill? We can’t even agree on boy run programs on this forum, so is it realistic for a parent to understand what they are asking or learn much by the answers?

 

Instead ask what I think is on the mind of most parents "how will you get my son his eagle?". I know it’s on their minds because that was asked of me by every group that ever visited us, and it was the hardest question for me to answer. But, you can learn a lot about the troop by that one question like, Do they do advancement in the troop program or wait until summer camp? Do they have a set agenda for each scout reaching rank or is the scout guided to plan his own agenda? And usually the answers will lead to other pertinent questions.

 

Another good question is: "Give us an example of how a camp out is planned from its creation to loading the cars on Friday night?". The answer to that question will tell you how much the adults and boys involved in the planning and running of the troop from annual planning down to the PLC meeting. And the answer will lead you to ask other key questions like: who plans the meals, when? Who buys the meals? Who cooks the meals? The answers to all those questions will give you a feel for roles of the adults and scouts in the program.  

 

“What do you expect from the parents?â€. That should provide answers to training, committee, who camps, who drives, who leads and so on.

 

And there is one question that is rarely mentioned but I find is really important, “How long is the present leadership expected to stay with the troop?â€. Fact is most programs have some noticeable changes after the adult leadership changes and I have seen sooooo many program loose half their membership in the first year as a result. If the SM plans to leave in the next few months, you want to know.

 

By the same token, I notice stosh presented his resume to the OP but he didn’t say how big his troop is. 10 scouts joining a troop of 100 is no big deal. 10 scouts joining a troop of six is no longer the troop that the Webelos visited. A troop that increases by 50% is basically starting all over. So you can learn a lot about the maturity and organizing of the troop by asking them how many new scouts they are expecting and what is their plan for dealing with the increase numbers?â€.

 

Oh, the big question in this discussion, should you call a head? Many troops change their program for visitors, so I like unannounced visits, but I do give them one days’ notice. One day allows the SPL to be ready without giving enough time to change the program agenda. Truth of the matter is the scouts usually do OK with unannounced visits, it’s the adults that get flustered. I once watched an ASM go into a tirade with the SPL because of the stress of 16 Webelos and their parents watching their program.

 

Campouts visits are really good too, in fact I think they are better. Learn the schedule of a troop and pick a campout you would like to visit to see the troop in action. You don’t have to spend the night, just a few hours on Saturday will help a lot. Maybe even stay for dinner. And I wouldn’t give them more than a weeks’ notice because that would give them enough time to change the agenda. Many troops have a specific weekend scheduled every year for Webelos visits and it is usually pretty good program. But you want to see a typical campout, not one that is designed to entertain Webelos. As I said, it is usually the adults that over react to the surprise visits, so the smart SM lets the PLC handle it. I did and they never disappointed me.

 

Good luck and have fun with it.

 

Barry

[gumbymaster 98]

Make sure to inquire about what an expected participation cost is, that may significanly effect which families can do what; and along those lines, what kind of fund raising the unit does and generally how it is spent.

 

Also, if the majority of the Adult leadership has Boys in the Troop, ask about their succession plan.

 

While I undertand the logistics of a whole den just dropping in unannounced; once my Son was pretty sure which unit he wanted to go to, we did visit unannounced so he could see what a regular meeting was like.

 

We visited three troops directly and were exposed to several more through a webelos midway and a camporee event.

Of the three, one was a large, 80+ boys, 6+ patrols, well age distributed) that had a very active advancement and activity program - surprisingly this was also one of the most Boy led units as well.  The second was 25-30 boys, mostly 12-15, starting to rebuild a boy led program, and again with a very active activity program, less emphasis on Troop provided advancement opportunities.  The third was much smaller with 12-16 active boys, about half 14-16 years old (maybe 24 total on the roster at the time),Other than Summer Camp they tended to take the summer off.  Personally I was concerned about their ability to maintain a critical mass.

 

The first unit was most like my own Scout experience.  In the end, my Son chose the last unit, because when they did a webelos skills teaching event, firebuilding in this case, the older scouts were VERY patient with my son and anonther Scout that just weren't getting in, never made them feel ashamed or embarassed by needing more time.  My son was afraid that he would be lost and unnoticed in the larger unit.  I can't fault him for his choice, he had a very valid reason for making it.

 

In the end, 3 boys of his den when to his unit, 6 went to the middle unit (mostly due to that's where most of our Cub pack goes, and where many of our Cub leaders have graduated to).  The larger unit was further away - but I did take satisfaction in knowing that the SPLs of all three units, in January at least, came from my pack.

 

Every boy and every family have different needs.  Each Troop has a different personality.  This is why visiting multiple units is important for the Webelos.

[blw2 433]

If you sent that list to me, you would get a response like this:

 

You and the other adults can ask all of those questions to our Senior Patrol Leader when you come and visit -- he's in charge.  The boys can ask any questions they have to the Patrol Leader of the patrol they are assigned to for the meeting. I think that the decision of what Troop a boy joins should be his decision based on the things that are important to him -- not those things that are important to the adults.  Ultimately, the best person to ask questions to is your son and the best question to ask after the meeting is "did you have fun?"  Then listen to what he says.

 

I would agree that a long list isn't appropriate to send

or even to plan to run through each and every question...

 

But I do think it's a reasonable idea to blast out a few brief questions ahead of time.  Interesting idea @@5yearscouter

Some questions could benefit from a bit of fact checking &/or reflection...

One that comes to mind is regarding the size, participation, and age demographics of the troop... as examples

 

I certainly wouldn't be too happy with a snarky reply either... A scout is helpful afterall....

 

@@Hedgehog I think there's stuff kids want to know and stuff parents want to know. Sometimes we get lost in the boy-led discussion and forget that the Webelos haven't had that yet and parents (akela) are still very much the leaders.

 

When we were looking we spent a few meetings with the boys putting together their list of questions. Parents did the same. The boys asked the questions of the other boys while the parents got their questions answered by the SM.

 

There are considerations requiring adult review in the troop selecting process.

Very valid points, me thinks!

 

My point of this thread isn't to generate a multi paged list.... in fact I'm not even sure I would share my current list in its entirety as it is.... but there are a whole lot of good ones in there now!

 

I do think it's good to go in prepared thinking ahead of the things that are important, and how best to use the limited window that we'll surely have to find out as much as reasonably appropriate..... and how best to pick through the show to get at the truth.... if that's the case....

 

I think it's important to remember that these boys, if they don't have an older brother in, they don't know what patrol method is (for example).... or boy lead.  They might have heard of it, but the don't really know.... so they don't know to look for it, they don't know what to ask.  They might not even understand why it's important to look for it, even after it's explained or demonstrated!  

That, I see as falling under Akela's wing, or the Den Leader's, to help guide the boy a bit.