LeCastor 641 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Of course they can. But the correlation between the number of knots/awards/beads you have and the level of condescension one gives his high. I had to laugh when I saw a scouter wearing his 1973 Jamboree patch in the temporary insignia area on his class A. It's been over 40 years, does he need that much validation of who he is in his life? Frankly, I think as scouters we should wear only those things we earned as scouters (save for Eagle and AOL). I earned tons of awards, medals and patches as a youth (world jambo) but I don't go around sporting it. Maybe that Scouter had the time of his life at the 1973 Jamboree and wears it for the memories. Perhaps it's a conversation-starter? I would argue that wearing that patch shows the youth that the Scouter was once in their shoes, similar to the wearing of Eagle and AoL knots. I saw a guy the other day who was wearing the world jambo patch from Australia (yellow and green). Pretty neat! We had a good conservation about his adventures. I sure hope you didn't laugh in this Scouter's face about his '73 patch...or in the presence of other Scouts.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
blw2 433 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 I have felt like the OP, that the CC or someone else should be doing it.... well at least pushing the bus.... but just as with scouts, it's up to them to go get their books signed if they want the patch... so why not put the burden on the scouter to push the paper if he wants the patch I do get a kick out of those large collections.... but if they are earned, hey I see no reason not to wear them. Nothing wrong with that. The attitude that some folks have mentioned is what is wrong, not the knots..... Our last pack meeting is coming up, & I wish that I could award some knots to our Den Leaders for their service. I've looked at the options and requirements, and sadly none of them have earned any even though they have served their dens well...... (no round tables attended, etc...) I would appreciate the Cubmaster one, now the scouters key I think, to recognize and remember my time in service to the pack. I meet all the requirements but one I think.... we don't have a summer program (because that's the way its always been done..... not because I wouldn't like to, but because there's no support for it.... and that is a requirement, so no.... Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Maybe that Scouter had the time of his life at the 1973 Jamboree and wears it for the memories. Perhaps it's a conversation-starter? I would argue that wearing that patch shows the youth that the Scouter was once in their shoes, similar to the wearing of Eagle and AoL knots. I saw a guy the other day who was wearing the world jambo patch from Australia (yellow and green). Pretty neat! We had a good conservation about his adventures. I sure hope you didn't laugh in this Scouter's face about his '73 patch...or in the presence of other Scouts.... No, my chuckle was internal. I'd never disrespect someone openly and never in front of the scouts. Privately, when I am no longer wearing the uniform and enjoying an adult carbonated malt-based beverage with my scouting brethren, we will have a private laugh. I get wanting to show the kids you've "been there, done that", but in my opinion, that's not what we are there for. I don't recall my SM wearing a single thing on this uniform and we ALL respected him through his actions and deeds. I don't believe the measure of a man is what he wears over his heart, but rather what is in his heart. I *do* think that the attainment and wearing of these knots and beads does more to promote that "us versus them" mentality we are discussing in the district thread. Let's face it, most of the kids have no clue what all those knots are for...nor, in my experience, do they care. The kids know when you do or don't know something. One could argue, if you are applying the patrol method and boy-led mantra correctly, the boys may never know if I can even tie a square knot. Side Note: I wonder how many scouters nationwide, who have disdain for the use of military terms in scouting, have a plethora of knots on their chest. The stats might be pretty ironic. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JoeBob 606 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 I like flying under the radar. I don't have to worry about having chest bumping contests with Liberaces. I don't get 'volunteered' too often, so I can step up when I think I'm truly needed. The awards that are pins are in my chest-top drawer, I think, not poking me under a pack strap. And those Crayola Chests that dismiss me because I only wear the one knot? I dismiss them just as fast! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
oldisnewagain1 42 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 After reading this thread, I going just one row AOL,Eagle, and (green and white) Key. Don't give me a pin to stick on them, I won't wear it. On the other hand, just try to pry my Eagle dad or Eagle mentor pins off my collar and there going to be a fight Link to post Share on other sites
LeCastor 641 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Believe, me guys, I understand what you mean by folks who take advantage of the knots and use the uniform as a brag vest. I get it. However, I don't think it's fair to lump all knot-wearers into some category of jerks/self-servers/über-Scouters. Let's just move on and agree that if you earned it you earned it. Wear it if you want to or put it in the drawer. Turn in the paperwork yourself or ask your unit committee if they can help you. Yes, some Scouters are jerks. Most are not. A Scout is Friendly. A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own. A Scout is Courteous. A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along. A Scout is Kind. A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. Without good reason, he does not harm or kill any living thing. A Scout is Cheerful. A Scout looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. Edited May 13, 2015 by LeCastor 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Sentinel947 1205 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Yes, but it does not always mean they know what they're talking about. And since supply does not restrict their purchase in some areas, they may not have even been earned. Being an extrovert myself I usually find that I can sum up a person through conversation pretty fast, which will also tell me if they're worth all those awards or not (knot, as the case may be). Of course they can. But the correlation between the number of knots/awards/beads you have and the level of condescension one gives his high. My former Scoutmaster who got rid of my Troops patrol method had one knot. (I don't recall which one it was.). Ancedotal evidence is exactly that. Situationally specific. You've established you don't get along with the folks in your district. You apparently live in the district straight out of Dantes 8th circle. With that in mind, your viewpoint on the subject is understandable. When we do judge people as being know it all twats because they wear 4 knots, or judge people as inexperienced losers because they wear none, we miss out on the opportunity to network, and build connections with others. I can say my Troop is in a better place because of the mentors I've made in Council/District Training, but also through this website. That makes a good mix of banna republic generals, and no-knot rebels. In the end what matters is running the best program possible for the Scouts. Knots can indicate experience. Whether or not (haha a pun!) it is experience that actually matters has to be determined by getting to know the person. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Serious Question: What are the pins on knots for? I assume earning it more than once? Link to post Share on other sites
mgood777 14 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) One could argue, if you are applying the patrol method and boy-led mantra correctly, the boys may never know if I can even tie a square knot. LOL, true. When I was a Life Scout and SPL, me and an Eagle Scout JASM were challenged to a camporee-type fire building contest by our SM and CC, two Eagle Scouts, but old farts. We thought there was NO WAY we could lose. . . . We lost. It was close, but we lost. [Many of you have probably seen this. It used to be common. May still be. There is a string tied 12 inches high, another at 18 inches. You have two two-by-fours 12 inches long. You have one hatchet, as many knives as you want, and two matches. Build a fire, stacking the wood no higher than the 12" string. First patrol to burn through the 18" string wins. GO!] Edited May 13, 2015 by mgood777 Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 When we do judge people as being know it all twats because they wear 4 knots, or judge people as inexperienced losers because they wear none, we miss out on the opportunity to network, and build connections with others. I can say my Troop is in a better place because of the mentors I've made in Council/District Training, but also through this website. That makes a good mix of banna republic generals, and no-knot rebels. In the end what matters is running the best program possible for the Scouts. Knots can indicate experience. Whether or not (haha a pun!) it is experience that actually matters has to be determined by getting to know the person. We agree that networking and fellowship should begin and end with who we are, not what we wear. I don't judge people who wear 15 knots as being total pratts at first, but I have found the correlation to be high. Even outside of my district I see this behavior. I was at a summer camp where the guy teaching IOLS fell ill. I heard this and volunteered to teach in in stead. I noted I'd done this many times before and my council training chair was in camp with us, so he verified things for the CD. The CD met with my council rep (not with me) and said I did not look like I had the experience needed; in other words, my uniform lacked the knots and beads he was looking for. So rather than give up my (paid and non-refunable) week of backpacking through the Sierras to help them, I went on my trek. I think this attitude which permeates my district goes wider than you think. Link to post Share on other sites
DuctTape 1230 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 I wear one knot; my eagle award. I agree with what some others have said in regards to knowledge, experience, and helpfulness are not measured by the quantity of knots worn. IMO, there is little correlation. Link to post Share on other sites
oldisnewagain1 42 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Serious Question: What are the pins on knots for? I assume earning it more than once? The pins show what program it was earned for, for example, the Unit Leader Award of Merit. In theory, you could have a pin for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity, and Venture programs worn all on the same knott. Link to post Share on other sites
mgood777 14 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Believe, me guys, I understand what you mean by folks who take advantage of the knots and use the uniform as a brag vest. I get it. However, I don't think it's fair to lump all knot-wearers into some category of jerks/self-servers/über-Scouters. . . . Yes, some Scouters are jerks. Most are not. Agree. Some of the best Scouters I've known have worn quite a few knots. And I've known some with lots of knots who made you wonder why they were even there, seemed to contribute nothing but to look down their noses at the "less accomplished" Scouters. And I've known some great Scoutmasters with nary a knot to be seen on their uniforms. Some had them and didn't bother sewing them on. Some never got them, busy with their troop and not noticed by district/council and never bothering to turn in paperwork for personal awards. Link to post Share on other sites
mgood777 14 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Serious Question: What are the pins on knots for? I assume earning it more than once? Yes, what @@oldisnewagain1 said. Some knots can be earned in several different ways, and earned multiple times. The pins show in which branch of scouting they were earned. You could earn the Scouter's Key as a Scoutmaster and the Commissioner's Key as a Commissioner. Same knot. Rather than wearing two identical knots (like my District Commissioner does ), you wear one knot with the two pins on it. I think the Scouter's Key and Scouters Training Award were once available to Cub leaders too, before they came out with a bunch of Cub-specific knots. So someone could have earned the Scouter's Key as Cubmaster, again as Scoutmaster, and again as a Commissioner. One knot with three pins. Some pins may show additional training beyond the basic requirements of the knot. You may wear Eagle Palms, if earned, on your Eagle knot. There is a Philmont Training Center knot that is part of a three-tier program. (Without looking back at the specifics, going off the top of my head, so don't flame me if I'm off by a little.): 1. Attend a training conference at Philmont Training Center and get the PTC patch which can be worn on the right pocket of the uniform as a temporary insignia or on the right pocket of the red jack-shirt. 2. Attend a second PTC conference. Recruit three other people to attend PTC conferences. And teach a course in your district or council (presumably on the subject you studied at PTC). Get a knot. 3. Serve on the PTC faculty for one course, recruit 3 more people to go to PTC courses. . . And maybe something else. Get a PTC pin to stick on your knot. Edited May 13, 2015 by mgood777 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) @@oldisnewagain1, @@mgood777, thanks! Edited May 13, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to post Share on other sites
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